daughter problems

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mjmj6

daughter problems

Postby mjmj6 » Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:23 am

Hellon n I know this is super long - my apologies........n n We have 4 children ages 22, 20, 17, and 15 and have been married for almost 24 years. Our oldest, a son, has left the "nest" and is in England for 2 years ( a side note about this son, he is living with his girlfriend, even though we do not approve, we are still speaking to him and loving him). n Our second child, a daughter - 'Marie' - the one I am writing about - is in her first year of University (she doesn't like it and has not applied herself), and the other two, a girl and boy respectively, are both still in high school. n Nine years ago, we moved from a large urban centre to a smaller urban centre, over an hour away. 'Marie' was the only one of our 4 children who did not want to move. She changed after the move, dropping her A average in school, and (adolescence?) became less n communicative. She has not seemed truly happy or peaceful since. n We have told our children that when they live at home and are working, they are asked to pay room and board. When they are living at home and going to school we do not ask them to pay room and board. Unbeknownst to our children, we plan on saving the money they give us and present it to them at a later time in their life (wedding etc.). n n Our home has a fairly relaxed atmosphere - but there are still things that need to get done. We feel our requirements are fairly pared down to the minimum. They are as follows: n A) Be responsible for personal jobs - Keep your room basically tidy - in other words pick-up, dust and vacuum every now and then and do your own laundry. n n B) Participate in the running of the household - cook once a week, if not cooking help out with clean up and do one big cleaning chore a week - like wash the floor or vacuum etc. n n C) We need to know where you are (safety issue) and you need to come home at night. n n Here are a few more details in point form: n * This is her second year out of high school - the first year she worked a full time and a part time job and lived on her own for some of that time n * 'Marie' sporadically participates in the requirements - as she chooses. Her room is always a mess - which we do not comment on - we just close the door. She does her own laundry - every now and then (she has so many clothes, she can get away with it), she half-heartedly helps with dish duty every now and then, and cooks a meal about every other week on average. n Asking her to do a big chore, most often is answered with an "I'm too busy/just leaving", or a slight acknowledgement that the request was made - but then most times no effort to actually do the task. We often don't know where she is (and when or if she is coming home) - and the big one - when we do know where she is - we know she is sleeping at her boyfriends place. n * Her boyfriend ( seems to be a nice fellow - thank-goodness ) did live in an apartment with a male roomie, but has moved back to his parents home. He is 22 years old. His parents have no problem with 'Marie' n sleeping with their son at their home. n * When we have confronted 'Marie' with her unacceptable/non participatory behaviour, she comes home even less, speaks even less, and does even n less. There are days it is/was like a shadow was living in our home, because she would come and go, not saying much, and leaving as quickly as possible after changing clothes etc. n * We have tried numerous times to talk with 'Marie' about how her behaviour is affecting our home, and our concerns for her. She says very little, in fact usually sits stock still, shrugging her shoulders to our questions and efforts to communicate - but has said that she n does not believe what we believe any more - and that there is nothing morally ( or otherwise ) wrong with what she is doing. Asking about the worry of pregnancy, she admitted she is on the pill. n n * We have told her that unless she is willing to go with our home rules, she will unfortunately have to move out. She then said to us that she can't move out because she can't afford it - that if we would n co-sign a loan for her, then she could afford to move out. n We said that since we are providing her education, and a place to live, we do not agree with her going into debt, just to be able to live the way she wants. (If it was that important for her to live on her own, then she should have saved up some money when she was working her first year out of high school.) We told her our support only went that far - that we would not support more debt for her, by co-signing a loan. Her response was that she can't move out, because she can't afford it. She just ignored us and kept repeating her response.n n So, of course, we said sorry - I guess you'll have to live by our home rules if you are going to live here - --and she did not argue - she just did not comply. n n * At this point, wanting to salvage our relationship with her, we tried offering counselling for the three of us, in n hopes that we could repair our hurts and relationship, and come to some enlightenment with her. We told her she would be allowed to live here (in other words we would be "in limbo") as long as she came to counselling with us, and worked on improving our relationship....hoping that a neutral third party would help to make her feel more comfortable in dealing with the "issues". So, we had one session alone with the n councellor, and then 'Marie' had one session alone, and then the three of us met for the remainder. 'Marie' did not want to go. But she did go, and at 4 out of 5 appointments mostly said "I don't know" to questions like "what do you think/feel about that" etc. or she n shrugged her shoulders. We were getting nowhere. She did say that she doesn't see how it is fair that we are okay with her brother living with his girlfriend, but not okay with her doing the same. We tried to explain the dilema of parents "loving the sinner, but not the sin" but she did not seem to be able to hear it. n n "What have you decided?" was not anwered....(Are you going to comply, or move out?). n n * We had another counselling session a couple of days ago, and she refused to go. My husband asked if she was working, or if she had something else going on, and she said no, that she simply is not going. He told her that if she didn't come, decisions would probably be made with out her input. She did not come to the n appointment. Our counsellor recommended that we follow through with what we have asked of her. That unless she is willing to comply with our family home rules, she must move out. n n * We are thinking of offering more counselling sessions to her - without us, to help her to work on her issues that she can't seem to talk to us about. We have obviously failed her greatly. She indicates by her silence, her lack of trust and connection to us.n n ********My husband suffered ( and as a result our family suffered) from clinical depression about 5 years ago. Through hard work (spiritual/emotional/physical) he has it under control, but some days works hard to keep his thoughts on a positive wave. He recognizes some of 'Marie's' behaviors and avoidance patterns. Will we n just be "pushing her down further", by insisting she move out? n n Where does this leave us? She knows that we do n not want to "kick her out". Once we have crossed that "bridge", you can never un-cross it. For always and forever - she will have in her background that we "kicked her out".n n To try to talk myself into this, in my mind I try to use terminology that will best respect both of our positions. Words like 'realize this is where your journey is taking you', and 'accept the choice you are making to follow your own path', and 'we love you now, and will love you till the end of time - no matter what happens - ever'. n n However, I am feeling sick at the prospect of hurting our hurting daughter, even more. n n Which of our options will be the least harmful to her - and maybe even life-giving? Will making her leave make her feel abandoned and unloved? n n One the flip side, I can't help but think, that we are not doing her any favours, (in fact, are we not enabling her) by letting her continue to treat her family (and sit quietly while she treats herself this way). And the issue of avoiding dealing with her problems will just grow n stronger as she gets older unless she stops and is honest about where all of this is NOT getting her. n n With 'Marie' showing a leaning toward depression-like behavior - we are wondering how much we need to take this into consideration when deciding how much 'Tough Love' we need to dole out. (I have tried talking to her about depression - to no avail) As we are going n through all sorts of agony about her behaviour, I know she is also going through a difficult stage. I think the shoulder shrugging indicates that she can't solve her own problems. n n A trusted friend has gently suggested the best and safest place for her to be is right here in her own home, with loving parents, and a sister and brother, and if she decides to share in the housework, and to let us know when she is coming and going, that would be great, but that we might find it helpful to just let her alone, speak only kindly to her about other things, and leave her personal life to her without interference or even questioning. n n n Help - I seem to change my mind by the minute - I'm just not completely convinced that we need to be the tough, but loving parents. Maybe our friend is right, maybe this is when she needs us to turn a blind eye and show unconditional love -......... but then what does that say to n our other children????, and gosh!!!! how can we stand anymore???? We are just as concerned about them. They have been witnesses to her blatant disregard to our family at times, and obviously to our rules. From what they've seen, is "your sister is going through a rough time right now" going to cut it?n n Help, please. n n Thanks so very much, n mjmj6

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Kerry
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Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:01 pm

Re: daughter problems

Postby Kerry » Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:05 pm

Hi mjmj6: n n To disappear something you must first be willing to have created it, to have intended it. The problem is not your daughter. It’s you. Not you and your husband, solely you. You have trained your daughter to be abusive, inconsiderate, a user, manipulative, a saboteur, and a blackmailer. She is in fact mirroring you. You taught her to act this way. She is communicating her disrespect of you. How can one respect someone whom they can con and manipulate? What you call communication ain’t it. You’ve mastered talking, which produces more of the same less than desirable results. You are addicted to abuse and drama. Until you heal you no one around you can heal. Just your very nonverbal emanations give others no choice but to react as they do. You’ve mastered leadership but the way in which you lead doesn’t work for you or others. n n You are also unconscious. That is, you can’t tell when you are lying. For example: “She has not seemed truly happy or peaceful since.” A conscious person would have written (or at least back-spaced and corrected) “She has not been happy or peaceful since.” You are in denial.n n Re: “We have told her that unless she is willing to go with our home rules, she will unfortunately have to move out.” “Told,” yes, but not communicated. What gets communicated is, “I have had no intention of kicking you out?” You have trained her to know that you don’t always mean what you say—that you lie. n n Your resistance to experiencing all that you’d have to be willing to experience—the hurt, the pain, the loneliness, the doubt, the guilt, the grief, that would come from having her move out until she has completed 25 hours of therapy/counseling, keeps her from experiencing all that she needs to experience so as to complete her childhood.n n Notice that your “fairly relaxed atmosphere” (read no clear mutually agreed upon co-created agreements to include consequences), produces this condition. Non-authoritarianism is a good idea, but it’s inconsistent with human behavior at this stage of our evolution. The problem escalated beginning with the first perpetration having gone unconsequenced which begot all perps since then. She has lost respect of you and of herself. n n On cable there is a great series, The Dog Whisperer. View it if possible. The essence of it is that 99% of all undesirable dog behavior comes from owners being unwilling to be the pack leader. Dogs and children need a pack leader. The alpha male grabs the miscreant by the throat until he/she submits to authority. Nothing that bothers the alpha male is allowed to pass without consequences. Your family is missing a parent, an alpha male.n n Notice that you have trained your two other children and your husband to thwart and sabotage you. No matter what you think/believe, they have a vested interest in Marie being the object of your attentions; they intuitively know that if it weren’t for Marie, you’d shift the drama to each of them—that you'd see that they need as much counseling as she does. They have tremendous resistance to seeing that they are intending (however unconscious it may be) Marie to act this way. It’s called “not accepting responsibility for the results of one’s communication model.” How your husband communicates, his leadership-communication model, rewards and empowers Marie to thwart you. That indicates a considerable amount of covert anger and hostility on his part. It started as nonverbalized acknowledgments (withholds) and perpetrations on your part. He now has no choice but to mirror you. His lack of commitment to life, to aliveness, is being dramatized by Marie.n n It could be said that Marie is acting this way so as to call attention to someone, now others outside the family, that you and your husband are no longer in communication with each other. She knows, has a memory of, what it was like back when there was an experience of love in the household. You and your husband have lapsed into what’s referred to as an “ imitation of communication.” Problems persist when there’s a lie in the space. When the truth is told the problem disappears. There’s a lie going on between you and your husband. Marie can see it. It repulses her, drives her crazy.n n Re: “When we have confronted 'Marie'” and “We have tried numerous times to talk” are examples of why your children have no choice but to mirror your irresponsibility. A responsible person would have written, “When I have confronted 'Marie'” Further, "What have you decided?" was not answered....” would have been written, “I don’t know how to get Marie to communicate with me, to answer my questions.” Instead you come from blame, as though she’s the one with the communication problem. Communication coaching will support you in knowing how to create space for communication to take place.n n I’m concerned by your use of the word, “spiritual.” If you’re referring to the fact that you’re a church member/attend church, then it’s clear that your belief system isn’t working. If you are a church member and, say, a Christian, then you have thwarted (sabotaged) your pastor by not allowing him/her to counsel you using the tools of your denomination—how to pray effectively. It could very well be that part of Marie’s disrespect, “does not believe what we believe any more” has to do with the fact that she can see that your beliefs don’t work for you or her.n n Re: “Will we just be "pushing her down further", by insisting she move out?” Written from responsibility, “Will I just be "pushing her down further", by insisting she move out?” Yes, “tough love” will facilitate her in accelerating her downward spiral, so that she hits bottom while she’s young. She needs to hear from you, “Don’t call or write or leave messages until you can tell me you’ve completed 25 hours of therapy or counseling." BTW: Her “nice fellow” is also addicted to abuse; he’s an enabler, unconsciously supporting her in treating you abusively. No actualized boy would date her in her present condition. only someone whom she can control (read con using sex) by not having to communicate openly, honestly, and spontaneously. She hides from him the way she treats you. He is not a safe space for the truth to be told else he would have resolved (inspired harmony) the friction by now, just by his very niceness. He has developed a "nice act."n n Unbeknownst to you or your “friend,” your friend, and all with whom you relate, are part of the problem (inside the box). They can’t hear your lies because they have similar abuses going on in their lives. Any advice he/she has to offer won’t work. A true friend, one who knows from direct experience, would have told you long ago to get therapy and to not call them until you had resolved the Maria issue. You irresponsibly dump your stuff in his/her space day-after-day, without having had an intention to resolve the problem within 24 hours. Friends don’t do that to each other. They use each other to resolve and create new (mutually desirable) problems daily. Again, talking produces more of the same.n n Re: ”I seem to change my mind by the minute” Yes, this is indicative that you have so much stuff clouding your mind you can’t see the truth. Stuff such as unacknowledged childhood perpetrations, (lot's of unresolved parent stuff) and present-day withholds. I recommend that you use The Clearing Process, do five clearings, one per day for five days in a row. You’ll notice a difference in your clarity. What you need to do will pop to the front of your mind, you will find yourself communicating appropriately. n n Paying for her counseling, like paying for her college, won’t work. She has no intention to heal. Matching funds on the other hand accepts responsibility for your cause in the matter and supports her in accepting responsibility for her cause; when she values it enough to work for it she'll make it work. She’s stuck being a user; lending her money will only compound the negative karma she’s heaped upon herself; along the same line, do not lend her a car, she’s setting up life for an accident, perhaps an unwanted pregnancy. Her anger is such that she’s intent on taking as many down with her as possible, beginning with making sure you and your husband have failed as parents. Talk to her boyfriend and get him to acknowledge that he will pay child support for life if he accidentally impregnates her. His integrity is out so he also is ripe for creating undesirable problems. n n Thanks so much for reaching out.n n With aloha,n n Kerry a.k.a. Gabbyn n PS. There’s a lot here, do check back in few days, I might have some edits/additions.n n PPS. Because we have talked about so many behind their backs it would work if you had everyone read our coms—to include both sets of in-laws. They need to know the effects their leadership communication model has had on their children. They can’t sleep well at night knowing they have yet to teach you kids how to have a supportive loving relationship with your children. Whenever two are at odds with each other there is always someone pretending to be an ally who in fact is unconsciously intending the friction. There are no exceptions to this fundamental communication principle. Get into communication with the silent hexer.

mjmj6

Re: daughter problems

Postby mjmj6 » Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:24 am

Holy Cow!n n I knew it was going to be tough - but I didn't know it was going to be gut wrenching! To be honest - I am feeling hollow and cold.n n As a first step - I am wondering if it would be beneficial to show this com to Marie? .....and then how do I make sure I don't screw up the communication following her reading it? I feel like a person in a foreign country who doesn't know the language - but needs to say something very important.n n I have read a bit about the clearing process - and will commit to reading all there is, and doing it for 5 days.n n How do my husband and I improve our relationship? I thought we were doing g r e a t! ...so this is a big shift for me.....n n And - I will be seeing my sister today for the first time since the freak-out phone call - what do I say to her?????????? Do I not say much and write her a letter instead?n n n Wow!n n Thanks for your time in reading both my long messages, I appreciate your insight....I'm just not sure what to do with them...n n Thanks,n mjmj6

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Kerry
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Re: daughter problems

Postby Kerry » Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:51 am

Hi mjm6:n n Re: “I knew it was going to be tough - but I didn't know it was going to be gut wrenching!” I’m including a quote here* from your Feedback Form Communication written prior to your Message Board posts so that others reading this thread will know that you requested Gabby’s viewpoint. n n *“I have read a lot of the letters and answers from Gabby, and am looking for a way to get an opinion on my 'problem' - as I can see a lot of truth in those answers. Even if a lot of the answers are painful for the reader to accept. So....I'm not even sure if the message board/posting is the way to have my question answered by Gabby.......”n n 35 years ago, I was teaching Speech Communication classes part-time at our university etc. and full of myself and knowledge I raised my hand and asked someone whom I respected to give me some feedback/coaching. In essence they told me, in front of 250 others, that what they had to say I couldn’t hear because I was so full of shit. They then told me to sit back down. I too experienced a wrenching gut that lasted a full 8 hours, so much so that I was asked to sit in the back of the lecture hall because of my incessant crying. No one had ever saw or gotten me. I had never ever experienced communication before. I had been so full of myself, and had presented such an act to the world that I couldn’t get or be gotten. In one ten-second interaction this person had seen right through me. It was experiential. In a flash it became clear to me why we (me and the UH faculty) were failing in our attempts to teach teachers how to communicate subject matter—we simply didn't know that we were stuck in the adversarial communication model and couldn't see the forest for the trees.n n Re: “To be honest - I am feeling hollow and cold. Yes, I get this. Experience it. Choose to be empty. Don’t talk. Wrap yourself in a blanket and bathe in nothingness. Allow what comes up to come up. The pain, the hurt, the loneliness, the sadness. When you get (as you just have) that who you are is nothing, you can begin to know everything. It’s the beginning of enlightenment. In service to yourself and your family you deserve to be served. At the entry to a Zen Monastery are two gargoyles, one representing confusion, the other paradox. To become enlightened one must pass through, choose to be confused and to see that everything is both true and not true.n n n Re: “I am wondering if it would be beneficial to show this com to Marie?” Please assure me that you are not an alcoholic or on drugs/medications. Please reread my reply again. In it I recommend that you show our communications to everyone. I also recommended that you use The Clearing Process so as to clear your mind of thoughts and incompletes that are presently serving as barriers to being and to communication. Notice that you didn’t understand my two recommendations—show everyone and clear. In other words communication didn’t take place between us. There is a barrier. Clear and you will find it.n n Re: “how do I make sure I don't screw up the communication following her reading it?” It’s OK to worry, you have no choice but to, and yes, you will screw it up. Even if you remained silent. You can’t use the mind that created this condition to resolve it through to mutual satisfaction. As I wrote, it doesn’t work to relate/interact with people stuck in abuse. To do so is to reveal your own addiction, worse yet it reveals that you are lying when you say you want an abuse free life. Everyone in your family is addicted to abuse. You can’t determine if you’re the cause or if they are sick as long as you are in the equation. If you remove yourself and Marie’s life starts working then we know it was you. Unless you are willing to estrange yourself from everyone and take a six month sabbatical, immersing yourself in therapy/counseling, you will/can only generate more of the same.n n Re: “I feel like a person in a foreign country who doesn't know the language - but needs to say something very important.” Yes. I get this. Everything that comes out of you will only generate more of the same. Use The Clearing Process as a journal to empty your mind. If you dump your stuff in other’s space it will only compound the problem. Zip your lips. Show everyone our coms and then tell them you want a recess from talking for a week. Now that’s a communication that will definitely have an impact. They and you will have to choose to experience (be with as opposed to dramatizing, reacting, and generating more stuff) their experiences. n n Re: “How do my husband and I improve our relationship?” You can’t. You first must be willing to not have the relationship, to complete it. Then, and only then, can you begin to create a new one, one founded upon open and honest and spontaneous communication, zero thoughts withheld. The problem is that for you to be you you’re going to have to be willing to assert yourself. It’s most likely he would not have married you if you were clear and strong and capable and didn’t need him/anyone to be happy. That is to say, if you become whole and complete, if you heal you, he most likely won’t be attracted to you. It’s extremely difficult for a man to be around a clear confident woman, one who doesn’t tolerate mediocrity or pouting or dramatization in her space. An actualized woman requires a clear confident supportive partner, one who is equally on-purpose in life, serving the greater community. What makes a relationship work, what causes it to expand, is when both take what works about their relationship out into the world and share it with others, when both are actively committed to having the world work. The com skills it takes to effect a transformation in another’s life, in the community, or a school system, are the same skills it takes to cause a relationship to work and expand. If you don’t generate new community/organization kinds of problems your mind generates what you have going on between you and Marie and everyone else in your family. What drives Marie crazy is that she is stuck hanging around people committed to hypocrisy and mediocrity. Here she is a brilliant child with not one person in her life or family or community who can get into communication with her to inspire excellence. It truly does slowly drive a person insane. n n You ask what you can do and it’s not about doingness. I’d recommend that you do the Spouse Abuse Tutorial but I’m not clear that you are eligible . It wouldn’t work if you are on drugs, if you attend church (you need to empower/counsel-with your pastor), and, you’d need to not have seen a therapist for three months. In other words, if you can’t empower a therapist to help you (to win with you) you will unconsciously intend for the tutorial to not work either.n n Re: your “sister.” “Sister, please read the communications between a communication skills coach and myself. Then, don’t call or try to contact me until you can tell me you have completed 25 hours of therapy or counseling. I’ll not listen to messages or read letters from you till, then. You can trust me that I’ll be participating on my own healing at the same time. How I have been communicating with you hasn’t worked for me. I need to be absolutely clear about how I have been causing this friction. I intend to complete my experience of abusing and being abused. I’m going to hang up now.” And mean it. n n Re: “Thanks for your time … I appreciate your insight....” Thank you, you are welcome.n n With aloha,n n Kerry

mjmj6

Re: daughter problems

Postby mjmj6 » Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:27 am

Hi Kerryn n Well, all of "this" has been rolling around in my mind for the past several days. I have questions. n n Re: "the problem is you, not you and your husband, solely you." Okay - so I have to accept that this is a fact. Please tell me why. Why is it solely me? I have not been alone in raising my children. Do not all adults come into relationships with their "baggage" and then that "baggage" is opened and mixed and shared, and the children get a dose from each parent?n Please do not get me wrong. I see that I still am in the infant stage of learning how to communicate e f f e c t i v e l y........I just want to understand how this can be???????n n Re: You've mastered leadership?? n What does that mean?n n Re: "...having her move out until she has completed 25 hours of therapy/counseling." A councellor who is trained in communication (as I have been experiencing with you) is rare in our parts. Do I offer her comcom?n n Re: "Your family is missing a parent, an alpha male." Are you saying I am to be that? What about my husband?n n Re;"His lack of commitment to life, to aliveness, is being dramatized by Marie." Are you refering to my husband's depression? n n Re:" She knows, has a memory of, what it was like back when there was an experience of love in the household." This is about the only statement that gave me a 'warm fuzzy'........that I/we did do s o m e t h i n g right.n n Re:"When the truth is told the problem disappears. There’s a lie going on between you and your husband. Marie can see it" Are you refering to the 'clearing process'?n n Re:"“I don’t know how to get Marie to communicate with me, to answer my questions.” Instead you come from blame, as though she’s the one with the communication problem. Communication coaching will support you in knowing how to create space for communication to take place." Forgive me if this is a question that you feel you have already answered - - - - Your website is vast, and full of tools and steps to take to heal and have hope - is this what you are referring to when you say 'communication coaching'?n n Re: - Re: “Will we just be "pushing her down further", by insisting she move out?” Written from responsibility, “Will I just be "pushing her down further", by insisting she move out?” I write from the perspective of 'we' because my husband and I want to show a united front. Is this the wrong thing to do? I am confused by your correction..n n Re:"Yes, “tough love” will facilitate her in accelerating her downward spiral, so that she hits bottom while she’s young. She needs to hear from you, “Don’t call or write or leave messages until you can tell me you’ve completed 25 hours of therapy or counseling." That feels like abandonment to me.....help.......n I can understand your suggestion for me to say that to my sister - She is not my daughter.n n Re: referring to Marie's boyfriend - " He is not a safe space for the truth to be told else he would have resolved (inspired harmony) the friction by now, just by his very niceness." If he has the power and ability to inspire harmony and resolution, how can it be that the 'problem' is entirely me...........n n Re: - Re: “I am wondering if it would be beneficial to show this com to Marie?” Please assure me that you are not an alcoholic or on drugs/medications. Please reread my reply again. In it I recommend that you show our communications to everyone." I can assure you I do not take drugs, or abuse alcohol. My mind was not even letting in the words - 'show this to everyone'. Who is everyone? My immediate family? To what will it benefit everyone? I am not being facetious here - I want to understand.n n Re:"Unless you are willing to estrange yourself from everyone and take a six month sabbatical, immersing yourself in therapy/counseling, you will/can only generate more of the same." No, I am not willing to do that. Is there not a more palatable humane way? I am confused by this suggestion - it takes away all hope.n n Re: - Re: “I feel like a person in a foreign country who doesn't know the language - but needs to say something very important.” Yes. I get this. Everything that comes out of you will only generate more of the same. Use The Clearing Process as a journal to empty your mind. If you dump your stuff in other’s space it will only compound the problem. Zip your lips. Show everyone our coms and then tell them you want a recess from talking for a week. Now that’s a communication that will definitely have an impact. They and you will have to choose to experience (be with as opposed to dramatizing, reacting, and generating more stuff) their experiences." How do I explain this to my family? How can they understand..........n n Re: "You ask what you can do and it’s not about doingness. I’d recommend that you do the Spouse Abuse Tutorial but I’m not clear that you are eligible . It wouldn’t work if you are on drugs, if you attend church (you need to empower/counsel-with your pastor), and, you’d need to not have seen a therapist for three months. In other words, if you can’t empower a therapist to help you (to win with you) you will unconsciously intend for the tutorial to not work either." The last time we saw the therapist, was the beginning of January. I am not blaming the therapist - but I am quite sure she was not trained in communication therapy..... does that mean it was doomed to fail?n n Re: "Your use of the word "blessings." " - No, I did not know that the word blessing offended some people. Call me ignorant if you want , but I have not associated that word as being only related to Christianity. I can not think of a negative connotation to the word. You have educated me however, and after reading your powerful, aggresive repulsion of the word, I can assure you I will chose my uses much more carefully in the future.n n Okay....with trepidation I am sending this to you....as I am sure I am going to get blasted again. I am still feeling cold and confused and hollow and so, so , so, very unsure...n n I truly do appreciate your time and effort in helping out a stranger - - - thank-you!n n Sincerely,n mjmj6

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Kerry
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Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:01 pm

Re: daughter problems

Postby Kerry » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:49 am

Hi mjmj6:n n It’s clear that communication is not taking place between us. It appears that you are more intent on talking about your problems than not having them. n n It is unethical to talk about others behind their backs as we have here, to do so compounds the consequences of a lifetime of blaming. Therefore, please do not post here again (or email me) until you can tell me you have shown all of your family members, (both sides of the family) all of our communications, and, that you have completed five clearings.n n Resist the urge to pump out an angry knee-jerk reply so as to get in the last word. Be with your upset. Choose to experience the confusion and frustration of not being able to manipulate me into further conversations without you first showing everyone our posts and doing the clearings.n n The difference between a therapist and a communicologist is that a therapist communicates with clients in a way that guarantees that the client and the therapist will have the same problems the following day. The focus is on understanding why through talking about one’s problems as opposed to doing what it takes to have new ones. Your addiction to having the same problem with Marie tomorrow keeps her stuck. I assure you, once you have followed my instructions you will have an entirely new set of problems, and, you’ll all be dealing from the truth, each will have an opportunity to look at what’s so from responsibility, from cause. The ensuing conversations will be transformational for everyone. In this matter you are the leader.n n If I were your parents or your husband’s parents I sure would want to know that the way I have been communicating with you has caused the problems you are having with Marie. Marie is mirroring everyone’s addiction to abuse. If even one family member were free of the addiction the abuse could not be taking place. It will be incredibly uncomfortable for each to know that their individual leadership-communication skills have taught you to train Marie to be abusive to you. Remember, they are the ones who unconsciously taught you to blame. Without truthful feedback they will continue to produce the same results tomorrow.n n Please do not misunderstand me, I am enjoying the possibilities of our relationship. And, you are absolutely correct, there is no hope, if, you keep communicating with everyone as you have.n n With aloha,n n Kerry

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Kerry
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Re: daughter problems

Postby Kerry » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:32 am

Received from mjmj6 via email: 4/1/05 10:58 n n ================n n Hi Kerryn n I registered and paid for the Advanced Tutorial for Lies and Lying, but I can not find where to go to continue. I started it yesterday (I think it was yesterday??) and I saved what I had written, deciding that I would finish 5 clearings before I fully started the advanced tutorial.n n I'm guessing I goofed and should not have started the tutorial until I was actually ready to enter 'responsibility 1' on the message board.n n Could you help me 'find my way back' please ;-)n n Thank you, n n mjmj6n n ===============n n Hi mjmj6:n n Re: “I'm guessing I goofed and should not have started the tutorial ….” Please reread each of my replies to date and your replies to mine. Your 6th clearing today fulfills my assignment for "five days in a row," however your email is either an unconscious perpetration (indicative of other as yet verbally unacknowledged perpetrations) or another instance of abusively ignoring my instructions. In either case, it didn't feel good, my experience was irritation.n n I was remiss. I see now that I should have told you to not start any other process (tutorials) that required a reply from me until you had completed my requirements. I will not be engaging in further conversations with you until you can tell me you have shown our posts to both sides of the family.n n Given that you have paid for and have read the content of the Advanced About Lies and Lying, all that’s left is the exact same feedback and coaching with which we are presently engaged. The assignment remains the same. The foremost barrier to mutually satisfying communications/relationships for you is the deceit of your withholds with your family members. Till then no amount of conversations between us will produce the results you say you want. n n Please do not post here again, or begin a new topic “Responsibility 1,” or, email me again, until you can tell me you have shown our posts (not the clearings) to everyone.n n You have been doing an excellent job of clearing. Do reread all the pages and links pertaining to The Clearing Process. You’ll see/get things this time around that you didn’t before. I recommend that you continue clearing regularly. Use Reunion Conversations to trigger incompletes. One of the incompletes you’re looking for is the first time you ignored someone’s instruction and did something your way and never got caught (were not made to go back and do it per their instruction), your abusive cons and manipulations—they did not feel good—others are still incomplete (albeit unconsciously) because of your irritating manipulations. Such incidents (verbally unacknowledged) serve as barriers to communication between us.n n The communication skills (experiences) that will come from clearing with your family members will expand your ability to communicate with me.n n With aloha,n n Kerry

mjmj6

Re: daughter problems

Postby mjmj6 » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:46 am

It has taken time to show my letters to everyone. It has also been gut-churning and humbling.n n I am feeling anxiety at the thought of continuing, but something has brought me back here.n n n Thank-youn mjmj6

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Kerry
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Re: daughter problems

Postby Kerry » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:31 am

Hi mjmj6:n n I asked you to not post again until you could tell me that you have shown our posts (not the clearings) to everyone. Your post today is confusing. It implies that you have shown everyone but without beginning your post as I instructed. For example: "I have shown everyone our posts." My sense tells me that you have not followed my instructions, possibly once again trying to engage me in further meaningless conversations, that will only produce more of the same results for you and yours. This confusion tactic is a pattern of sneakiness of yours. It is abusive. It does not feel good. n n If I'm correct and everyone has not read our posts then aside from the above instructions add the following: Please do not post or email again or post to The Clearing Process until you can tell me you have completed 25 hours of therapy or counseling. n n For clarity: 1) Do not post here. 2) Do not email me. 3) Do not use The Clearing Process — until you can tell me that everyone mentioned has read all of our posts, including these last two, (but not your clearings) and, when you can tell me you have completed (by yourself) 25 hours/sessions of therapy/counselingn n Once again, reread our posts, and each page of the SAT, you will continue to get value from doing so.n n With aloha,n n Kerry

mjmj6

Re: daughter problems

Postby mjmj6 » Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:04 am

Kerryn n I did not post or email you until I followed your instructions. When I said "It has taken time to show my letters to everyone" I was lettiing you know why I have not posted for a while. It was a challenge to show my letters to everyone, time-wise and geographically.n Saying "It has taken time to show my letters to everyone" means that I AM telling you I have shown everyone my letters(posts) - I am offended that you are not accepting this statement just because I did not word it exactly as you did. You did not tell me that I had to word it e x a c t l y as you did. Believe me, if I would have known that is what you wanted - I would have given it to you. I am not being sneaky. I am still learning about how clear communication works. Your accusations also felt abusive and not good.n n So - you are not correct. "I h a v e shown everyone our posts."n n Demanding that I complete 25 hours of therapy/counselling before I contact you again, is effectively going to end our relationship. You would have no way of knowing this, but there is absolutely no way my family can afford that at this time. So it won't happen. You were a source I was reaching out to in hopes of growing, healing, renewing and facing the challenges in life. If it is not to be - just let me know. I am filled with a deep and profound sense of hurt, sadness and confusion over your words, as I was pleasantly surprised to see, when I looked "into myself" a readiness and vigor to tackle and accept the challenges you were putting forth.n n Blast me again if that is your wish - but let me assure you - you had a willing, faithful, imperfect, stumbling student - but a student nonetheless.n n mjmj6


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