#44 Should I ask for hand in marriage?

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#44 Should I ask for hand in marriage?

Post by Gabby » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:02 pm

Dear Annie: I have been dating "Brittany" for five years. We are both 22 years old and in love. I would like to propose. Do I need to ask her father for permission? If so, when do I do it? Groom-to-Be in Long Beach, Calif.

Dear Groom-to-Be: Well, aren’t you adorably quaint. These days dear you ask the girl first. Assuming Brittany accepts your proposal, it would impress her daddy no end if you asked your future in-laws for their permission to marry their wonderful daughter.
Good luck. You sound like a real sweetheart. Annie

Gabby’s Response:

Hi Groom-to-Be: Looks like your genes have intuitively retained some sense of the brilliance behind the protocol of many cultures, one that has been mostly ignored these past decades. If you agree that a son/daughter’s mandate to his/her parents is to bring into the family someone who "fits" and will enhance the clan then the following reply will make sense.

I’m a bit concerned that you’ve been dating her for five years and don’t have a relationship with her parents such that you already know you have their support. In any case, let’s assume that distance or some other legit reason has prevented each of you from introducing the other to his/her parents.

Two things come to mind.

1) Your question is sexist and reveals something about your attitude towards women that ultimately won’t work for you. You have already lost at least one point from her mother (assuming she is an actualized woman). Had you asked, "Do I need her parent’s support?" you would have entered into their household with a full 100 points. And, the answer would have been, yes, you need their permission and support.

That you don’t know, from your own experiences in your family that the son-in-law alliance is essential for a smooth marriage, suggests you have yet to learn the basics from your own family. I ask myself why are you asking here instead of asking your own mother and then your father. Let’s put this clearly. It won’t work for you to walk around in life with unconscious condescensions towards women.

2) What does Brittany think/know will be her father’s response? It could be a set-up, for you to thwart her father’s wishes. She should know by now (and have communicated it to you) that asking for his permission is merely a formality. A daughter from a loving actualized family looks for a man whom she knows her father would be proud to have as a son-in-law. Loving daughters do this automatically. For her to introduce you to a man whom she intuitively suspects will not like you would be abusive. In a healthy father-daughter relationship there is trust—that each will relate with, and bring home/into the family, only people who treat others lovingly.

In order to have and sustain a wonderful relationship you need to be willing to not have it.

My question: What if you "ask" and he doesn’t say the words yes or no but what gets communicated is no. Would you abide by his wishes? Or, would you enroll her in thwarting and ignoring him and get married anyway? Are you asking permission or presenting a nonverbal ultimatum? The ultimatum being: "Your daughter and I have decided to get married and we’d like your support, however, if you don’t like it, tough luck, we’re going to do it anyway." In other words, will your request for permission be just a "polite act" or do you intend to honor and respect his wishes. If he’s not in favor of it then ultimately it won’t work.

Let’s look at this from another perspective. That she doesn’t know intuitively her parents would say yes is indicative of communication problems within her family. She should have validated for you a long ago her choice in you. "My parents will just love you. You’re going to love them." A daughter who is in loving supportive communication with her parents comes from, operates from, supporting them. The point being, daughters have a mandate, to search out and bring into the family someone who will enhance the family. Daughters who have communication problems with their parents have yet to learn the communication skills necessary for a successful marriage. To marry such a woman is to never have a communication with her that does not include part of a former communication with her parents that did not turn out mutually satisfying. Her arguments with you will contain remnants of arguments that she never won with either her mother or her father. That is to say, she operates from an adversarial (win-loose) communication model.

Based upon your question, my guess is that she knows that her father knows she’s not ready for marriage. You’ll know when she’s ready because you will have twinges of envy about the awesome intimacy between her and her father. She would do well to engage the services of a communicologist who will coach her in having a complete supportive relationship with her parents. Were you ready for marriage you would have felt perfectly comfortable asking her your question—so you would do well to elicit some coaching to support you in being complete with your parents. They were supposed to have taught you these things. That they didn’t says there are quite a few conversations you have yet to have with them before you bring a daughter-in-law into their family. Do the Relationships Tutorial—conversations to have with your steady/fiancé in support of a fantastic marriage.

There is an exception to asking: If your parents and her parents are stuck in abuse and you both are willing to recess them from your lives until they get therapy, to your satisfactions, then you can co-create a new paradigm. If you choose this path I recommend that you both do the Spouse Abuse Tutorial
because, unbeknownst to you, both of you are also addicted to abuse.

Great question! Thank you, Gabby

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Last edited by Gabby on Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by DELETED » Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:48 am

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Gabby
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Post by Gabby » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:25 am

Hi Been there:

"Parents" yes, as you say, but, "ask her father," is to me sexist (conscious or not) and indicative of things to come. If, on the other hand, she said, "What do you mean, Ask my father? You mean ask my parents, yes?" And he replies, "Oh, yes, absolutely," communicating also, thanks for the correction. Then she has a winner. If she didn't pick up on his unconscious sexist remark then she is unconscious and will later find herself trying to change his condescending ways.

I used the letter to bring to the front of the mind the distinction between asking and presenting. However unconscious they may be many "asks" are veiled ultimatums. For example: Teen. "Can I have the car dad?" the implied communication being, if you say no I'll get angry and pout and make you feel badly. If the suitor has thought out all possible scenarios, and is willing to have any of them, then the parent(s) truly have space to make a choice. And, the suitor is totally willing to let her go, to not have her, if things get too "crazy."

I also agree with you that if the parent(s) say no that he should find out exactly why, though I'm not sure the boy would have the com skills to extract "the" truth from them, rather he might get a superficial polite reason/excuse). Their reasoning may be indicative of prejudice, bigotry, or a mental illness, in which case the girl should know up front that as long as she continues to interact/support such behavior it is unethical to seduce someone into her family if she intends to continue relating with her parents, except—that on the first date she says, "By the way, my parents are verbally abusive/alcoholics, or sick. I have tried everything to help them short of leaving and they refuse to get therapy, and, I plan on having them be an active part of our family; Is that a problem for you?" In this way the man has a choice. She could add, "I think it's best you come to dinner and meet them so as to make darn sure you can handle their abuse, of each other, of me, and of you."

I've noticed that few can, or are willing to, leave their parents to start a new lineage, even if the parent(s) are abusive/alcoholics and if they refuse to get therapy at the behest/insistence upon their own child. For anyone to marry into such a family, and support continued interactions, phone calls, get togethers, etc. (most importantly submitting grandchildren to such an environment) is proof that the new family member him/herself is addicted to abuse and is not committed to an abuse-free life.

The communication-skills it takes to inspire health, to enroll one's parents in counselling, in preparation for bringing in a new family member, are the exact same skills it takes to enroll a spouse in a drug-free, healthy-diet, no spanking our child, way of living and relating. Once one has been invalidated by his/her own parents, ("I don't respect you enough to opt for health") it sets in the pattern of worthlessness/powerlessness. To inspire health (or fidelity) one must be totally willing to not have the relationship at all times. If your partner knows/senses that your wisdom is conceptual, as opposed to experiential, some respect is missing already.

The following, communicated from experience, of knowing it works, works. For example: "If ever you refuse to acknowledged your verbal abuse, or if there is any physical abuse, I will insist that we both complete 25 50-minute sessions of therapy/counseling. If you refuse you agree now that you will leave the house. If you cheat, there will be no second chances. Are you absolutely clear about this?" Verbal here meaning unacknowledged verbal abuse. To cheat on me means that you agree to annul the marriage, to divide our possessions without attorney fees, and forgo claims to anything more than 50% of the proceeds from the sale of the house and that you will immediately move out while the house is being sold, and, that you will relinquish claims to child custody.


Thanks for replying, Gabby

new user

Post by new user » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:28 am

Gabby,

Come on. Are you for real? All he asked was if it was a good idea to ask her father, and you think he's sexist and go on and on and by the end of your reply, you mention abuse! It's a healthy tradition that too many young men don't even consider anymore. It doesn't imply that their wife-to-be is "property" of their father, but rather their child, whom is loved and cherished by her parents. The idea of a "blessing" or "permission" or their "hand", however you want to word it, is just a way of solidifying a family bond that is soon to be. It is (usually) the first big display of respect and responsibility a future son-in-law shows toward his fiance's parents.

As a matter of fact, tomorrow I plan to ask her PARENTS for their "blessing", not her father for permission, not because I think it's sexist or demeaning toward my girlfriend, but because I just wish to let her mother know my feelings, plans, and excitement, as well as her father - and I ask for their blessing because they are pretty religious.

Gabby
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Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:24 am

Post by Gabby » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:49 am

Hi New User:

I got your thoughts. Thank you for participating in this conversation.

I know that at some level you know that there is a way to present an opposing point of view in a way that feels good to all concerned. Your knee-jerk, “Come on. Are you for real?” doesn’t feel good. That you didn't catch yourself (were unconscious) when you wrote your abusive make-wrong indicates that you are addicted to arguing and to making others wrong—to invalidating them. It's called condescension. Unless you locate the source of your anger and complete it you will eventually drive your wife to be out of your life. In truth she is presently unconscious and can't hear your subtle “Come on. Are you for real?” s.

My engagement gift is to strongly recommend that both you and your intended do the Relationship Communication-Skills Tutorial. Also read about the Fidelity Agreement.

Please show our communications to your intended.

With aloha, Gabby

PS. I agree that asking her parents individually for their support (even your use of their term blessings) is both respectful and appropriate. I assume that you have met and have spent a bit of time with them so as to give them time to communicate their thoughts (approval or not) about you to her, and that you both know the asking is a mere formality, that you already know you have their blessings.

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