Dear Ann Landers: I am 62 years old, and my wife, "Emily," is 60. We have been married for 35 years and have two children, several grandchildren and a good, solid family life together.
A few weeks ago, Emily confessed that she had a seven year affair during our marriage. The affair ended 25 years ago. This surprised and hurt me deeply. I love my wife and family, and I know she loves me. Emily has always been a wonderful wife and mother. Everyone who knows her respects and admires her. She made a mistake. When she asked me to forgive her, I did so without hesitation.
Here is the problem. I know who her lover was. I found out where he lives, and I want to confront him, not physically, just by telephone. No man should get away with this kind of adulterous behavior and not pay a price. He had a family, too, and he knew she was married. Both of them were equally to blame. Emily has paid her price, and now I am paying, too, but his guy has had a free ride.
I am not a vindictive person, and have no interest in telling his wife what I know. But I would like to let him know if he goes to hell, I hope he has a good trip. Should I? HURTING IN N.J.
Dear Hurting: The affair ended 25 years ago? I am at a loss to understand why your wife decided, after all these years to make a confession.
My advice is to let it go. I see no good purpose being served by opening this old wound again. It would only result in more embarrassment and pain. Nothing positive would be accomplished. ANN LANDERS
Gabby’s Response:
Hi Hurting: No reader buys that you are not coming from vindictiveness--so the outcome would not be pretty.
What a great opportunity to rise above being a victim. Sure you could confront the guy but most likely it would only result in acrimonious exchanges. It would take intention, on your part, to effect a mutually satisfying exchange.
Let's look at it from an entirely different awesomely challenging viewpoint. Let's just say that unbeknownst to you it's you who doesn't want to "get away with" what you did. Would you be willing to look and see that you drove your wife into the arms of another man, not just any man but a married one at that? Perhaps you believe you've gotten away with having done that; worse, still denying that you intended it.
It takes wisdom and considerable courage to look to see that the whole game has been masterminded by you. The poor guy never stood a chance in your drama. Depending upon how powerful you are willing to be, it could be said that you intended for her to seduce him, and to deceive you, for seven years, to get to this point. Perhaps to acknowledge and let go of your self-righteousness? For certain it's been about you discovering that what you thought was communication was not.
I do get "solid," as in fixed, ridged, unchanging, and set in ways and opinions.
You say you forgive her. I don't get it. In the enlightenment game it makes no sense to forgive someone for something you manipulated them into doing, does it? Remember, deceivers always always hang around deceivers. What have you been hiding from her, perhaps even from yourself? I suspect it's the you in him that wants to get caught.
Let's look at it from another point of view. If I now gave you the task, "Do whatever it takes to drive your wife into another's arms, but do it so she doesn't know you're doing it" you'd have to look back and see just what you did/did not do, and do it all over again. This time you'd do it consciously. Just because you produced a result unconsciously doesn't mean that you didn't produce it.
In a relationship in which there is an experience of communication (open, honest, and spontaneous, zero significant thoughts withheld) it is virtually impossible for one partner to have thoughts of another except that those thoughts are shared openly and therefore nipped in the bud. That there was deception in your relationship for seven years merely indicates how unconscious you were. You had become solidly stuck doing your imitation of communication.
If you look into your experience you know that he has paid and quite possibly is still paying; if he hasn't told his wife, then happiness is still eluding him. There can be no experience of communication (love) if a relationship contains deceit. Concept of love yes, experience of love no.
Responsibility and compassion is what's called for.
Relationship Tip: In a committed relationship it works to communicate, if you didn't at the beginning, then right now today, "Can we agree that cheating is tantamount to effecting a divorce? I will not grant a second chance on this issue. Is this absolutely clear?" If they sense you are lying, that you will not effect an immediate divorce, they'll get it. In other words, if you lie to them, (if you don't really mean that you will divorce them) you will discover your lie. Not communicated clearly like this communicates (implies) that you will tolerate and "forgive" cheating. It also implies that you reserve the option to cheat and that you assume they will give you a second chance. This unconscious implied reserved option is why most people don't include the consequences of cheating in their marriage vows.
Here's what I recommend be included in a marriage vow:
"A measure of my commitment to you is to be faithful. To be unfaithful would immediately annul this marriage and forfeit my right to sue for children, alimony, or jointly held possessions."
Thank you, Gabby
Reply from No Name:
Dear Gabby: MY WIFE IS CHEATING ON ME AND SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH THIS MAN SO SHE SAYS ..SHE SAID I WAS NOT THERE FOR TWO YEARS FOR HER SO SHE WENT RUNNING WE ARE STILL MARRIED SHE SAYS SHE WANTS TO WORK ARE MARIAGE OUT BUT SHE STILL TALKS TO HIM HE LIVES IN ANOTHER STATE SHE HAS GONE AND SEEN HIM ..HE BAUGHT HER A RING
ALSO ..I DO LOVE MY WIFE VERY MUCH WE HAVE THREE CHILDREN TOGETHER .. WHEN I SAY ANTHING ABOUT IT SHE SAYS IM BEING PUSHY AND NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT SHES GOING THRU ..SHE SAYS SHE LOVES US BOTH AND SHE SAYS SHE KNOWS THIS HAS TO END WITH HIM THEY TALK ON CHAT ALL THE TIME ALSO ...WHAT DO I DO IM SCARED FOR ME AND MY CHILDREN
Gabby's Response:
Hi No name: Thank you for posting and for reaching out. My reply won’t feel good nevertheless it is part of what you need to hear in support of completing this relationship.
First, you need some counseling very quickly. You are teaching your children how to intend and put up with abuse and cheating. Don't be mislead. It has nothing to do with your wife. This is a leadership-communication skill you brought into the marriage.
Re: “My wife is cheating on me.” It should read, "She was cheating and now is seeing another openly." Yours is a victim statement. In order for you to complete what’s happening you’ll have to be willing to get up to cause in the matter, else you’ll still be singing the same poor-me song on your deathbed.
You write, “She said I was not there for her” instead of, “I wasn’t there for her.” Even now you aren’t willing to get her communication. Your communication is a covert accusation that she’s lying.
For example: Responsible cause statements would be, "Something about how I communicate, how I relate, my leadership-communication skills, unconsciously drove my wife into another’s arms." "I was so unconscious that I couldn’t see that I was not there for her when she needed me. I unconsciously intended my wife to cheat on me so as to force me to put-in (restore) my own integrity." These are examples of responsible communications and a good start.
The truth is you can’t save the marriage. Why? Because it’s not a marriage. You are holding on to, and trying to fix something (it's definitely not a marriage) that’s doesn't work. What you’ll end up with is a fixed something that still won’t work. What you can do is complete your relationship and then choose how you wish to relate with her in the future. Were you my son I’d advise you to stay away from her until she’s completed six months in a row of weekly therapy/counseling sessions. Look whom she admires and “loves,” someone who supports her in screwing over you. It doesn’t speak well for his taste in women either.
If it were "love," as she says, then she would have no problem introducing you both to each other, so that you'd both see what she sees in you two awesome people—that's what honest couples do. If either partner meets another who is in fact incredible and truly loving, they want to share the good find and bring that person into their circle of friends.
A truly loving person is an enroller who expands the circle of friends automatically, causing all to love each other. Cheaters attract and mirror cheaters.
It’s clear that she has lost her respect for you. There can be no experience of love when there is no experience of respect. Concept of love yes, experiences no. How do you recreate respect, assuming it ever was there? You can’t. Not with her in your life. She was attracted towards you because you also are deceptive. It's because your cons compliment each other. If you decide to go straight she will no longer be attracted toward you because you will fearlessly, and with deservedness, communicate (lay down the law) how you intend to be related with. She would not put up with such rules from you. She thrives with men she can manipulate. No actualized man would date a woman twice in a row if she said, “Oh, by the way, I’m seeing another man and I’ve accepted a ring from him, and, no I won’t stop seeing him just because you want me to.” It's called abuse.
You are right to be experiencing fear. You are driving your children crazy from all the unhealthy vibes, the lack of happiness, and no model for how to relate successfully. Actually, the damage is already done. Your responsibility now is to begin the healing process as soon as possible. Your wife cannot heal as long as she hangs around you. You reward and reinforce her deviant behaviors rather than inspire her to a life of integrity. This is partly why the recidivism rate is so high (the number of parolees who return to prison). Parolees return to their families and friends who still use the same leadership-communication skills that supported them in not going straight.
I recommend that you do the Spouse Abuse Tutorial, by yourself.
If this is of value please send a reply below. Thanks, Gabby
=====================
Reply from Josh:
Dear Gabby: #19 Don't you relize [sic] that the only reason that a woman would cheat on a man is because she really doesn't love him? Is this a hard concept to understand, people who love each other don't cheat on one another. Gabby I am amazed at your intellect. It only took you a couple pages to summarize something that would normally spoken take less than a few sentences. I know you won't publish this because it will tear apart your pathetic theory. To everyone out there who is reading this, if you really want to know how to treat one another in relationships go askmen.com and read doc loves articles, thankfully we have at least one person on the net who knows what they are talking about on relationships. Oh and Gabby, where did you pick up that line- deceivers always always hang around deceivers? Did you get that quote from a fortune cookie? -Josh who feels enlightened by his "Gabby" experience.
Gabby's Response:
Hi Josh: I've been in profound and intimate communication consultations with thousands of people who have cheated. At the beginning of each conversation most share their many reasons for cheating. Without exception each honestly and sincerely believe that their reasons are the truth. During the conversation they discover that their reasons are merely reasons. Reasons are what the mind manufactures to cover up the truth. Under the reasons is the truth of what the cheating was about. It's never ever what they said it was.
Also, what happens towards the end of the conversation, once the truth has been told, again without exception, they begin to experience the love that they said was not there. It's a moving and touching process. It's not that couples stop loving each other. It's that their incompletes (their withholds and perpetrations) have become barriers to the experience of love. Much like water on the other side of a faucet. Just because the mind can't see it doesn't mean it, like water, isn't there.
Josh, there is a way to communicate upset and disagreement without putting down another or calling them names. If you keep communicating abusively, as in your post, the experience of love will remain elusive. In other words, your #10 would not feel good upon reading it.
Perhaps you could ask someone at askmen.com to help you compose a post that would allow us both to feel good. Thanks, Gabby
To reply or post a comment press "post reply."
#19 Should I confront wife's adultery partner?
#19 Should I confront wife's adultery partner?
Last edited by Gabby on Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Dear Gabby: MY WIFE IS CHEATING ON ME AND SHE FELL IN LOVE WITH THIS MAN SO SHE SAYS ..SHE SAID I WAS NOT THERE FOR TWO YEARS FOR HER SO SHE WENT RUNNING WE ARE STILL MARRIED SHE SAYS SHE WANTS TO WORK ARE MARIAGE OUT BUT SHE STILL TALKS TO HIM HE LIVES IN ANOTHER STATE SHE HAS GONE AND SEEN HIM ..HE BAUGHT HER A RING
ALSO ..I DO LOVE MY WIFE VERY MUCH WE HAVE THREE CHILDREN TOGETHER .. WHEN I SAY ANTHING ABOUT IT SHE SAYS IM BEING PUSHY AND NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT SHES GOING THRU ..SHE SAYS SHE LOVES US BOTH AND SHE SAYS SHE KNOWS THIS HAS TO END WITH HIM THEY TALK ON CHAT ALL THE TIME ALSO ...WHAT DO I DO IM SCARED FOR ME AND MY CHILDREN
Anon
ALSO ..I DO LOVE MY WIFE VERY MUCH WE HAVE THREE CHILDREN TOGETHER .. WHEN I SAY ANTHING ABOUT IT SHE SAYS IM BEING PUSHY AND NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT SHES GOING THRU ..SHE SAYS SHE LOVES US BOTH AND SHE SAYS SHE KNOWS THIS HAS TO END WITH HIM THEY TALK ON CHAT ALL THE TIME ALSO ...WHAT DO I DO IM SCARED FOR ME AND MY CHILDREN
Anon
-
Josh
Dear Gabby: #19
Dear Gabby, Don't you relize [sic] that the only reason that a woman would cheat on a man is because she really doesn't love him? Is this a hard concept to understand, people who love each other don't cheat on one another.
Gabby I am amazed at your intellect. It only took you a couple pages to summarize something that would normally spoken take less than a few sentences. I know you won't publish this because it will tear apart your pathetic theory. To everyone out there who is reading this, if you really want to know how to treat one another in relationships go askmen.com and read doc loves [sic] articles, thankfully we have at least one person on the net who knows what they are talking about on relationships.
Oh and Gabby, where did you pick up that line- deceivers always always hang around deceivers? Did you get that quote from a fortune cookie? -Josh who feels enlightened by his "Gabby" experience.
Dear Gabby, Don't you relize [sic] that the only reason that a woman would cheat on a man is because she really doesn't love him? Is this a hard concept to understand, people who love each other don't cheat on one another.
Gabby I am amazed at your intellect. It only took you a couple pages to summarize something that would normally spoken take less than a few sentences. I know you won't publish this because it will tear apart your pathetic theory. To everyone out there who is reading this, if you really want to know how to treat one another in relationships go askmen.com and read doc loves [sic] articles, thankfully we have at least one person on the net who knows what they are talking about on relationships.
Oh and Gabby, where did you pick up that line- deceivers always always hang around deceivers? Did you get that quote from a fortune cookie? -Josh who feels enlightened by his "Gabby" experience.
Hi Josh:
I've been in profound and intimate communication with hundreds of people who have cheated. At the beginning of each conversation most share their many reasons for cheating. Without exception each honestly and sincerely believe that their reasons are the truth. During the conversation they discover that their reasons are merely reasons. Reasons are what the mind manufactures to cover up the truth. Under the reasons is the truth of what the cheating was about. It's never ever what they said it was.
Also, what happens towards the end of the conversation, once the truth has been told, again without exception, they begin to experience the love that they said was not there. It's a moving and touching process. It's not that couples stop loving each other. It's that their incompletes (their withholds and perpetrations) have become barriers to the experience of love. Much like water on the other side of a faucet love is always there.
Josh, there is a way to communicate upset and disagreement without putting down another or calling them names. If you keep communicating abusively, as in your post, the experience of love will remain elusive. In other words, your #10 would not feel good upon reading it.
Perhaps you could ask someone at askmen.com to help you compose a post that would allow us both to feel good.
Thanks, Gabby
I've been in profound and intimate communication with hundreds of people who have cheated. At the beginning of each conversation most share their many reasons for cheating. Without exception each honestly and sincerely believe that their reasons are the truth. During the conversation they discover that their reasons are merely reasons. Reasons are what the mind manufactures to cover up the truth. Under the reasons is the truth of what the cheating was about. It's never ever what they said it was.
Also, what happens towards the end of the conversation, once the truth has been told, again without exception, they begin to experience the love that they said was not there. It's a moving and touching process. It's not that couples stop loving each other. It's that their incompletes (their withholds and perpetrations) have become barriers to the experience of love. Much like water on the other side of a faucet love is always there.
Josh, there is a way to communicate upset and disagreement without putting down another or calling them names. If you keep communicating abusively, as in your post, the experience of love will remain elusive. In other words, your #10 would not feel good upon reading it.
Perhaps you could ask someone at askmen.com to help you compose a post that would allow us both to feel good.
Thanks, Gabby
-
romepower
Dear Gabby:
I'm married and getting a divorce from my wife because I'm having this affair with a married woman who promissed to be with me after she divorved her husband. Now she turned around and say she can't divorce
him because her kids and her husband is not even the biological father of
those kids and didn't even adopited them, but I know they love him but I also believe they can move on.
I lost my marriage, my home and pets and I'm hurt because she lied to me and helped me in a way to dissolve my marriage. I'm thinking of calling her husband and telling him everything that she did to me..she lied to me and him! My question is, can he sue me in the court of law saying I destroyed his marriage? Can she sue me if he leaves her with the kids since he has no responsiblities over the kids? What is the legal issues here? She has a big part in destroying my marriage too and probably thinks she had a free ride! Please adice.
Rome Power
I'm married and getting a divorce from my wife because I'm having this affair with a married woman who promissed to be with me after she divorved her husband. Now she turned around and say she can't divorce
him because her kids and her husband is not even the biological father of
those kids and didn't even adopited them, but I know they love him but I also believe they can move on.
I lost my marriage, my home and pets and I'm hurt because she lied to me and helped me in a way to dissolve my marriage. I'm thinking of calling her husband and telling him everything that she did to me..she lied to me and him! My question is, can he sue me in the court of law saying I destroyed his marriage? Can she sue me if he leaves her with the kids since he has no responsiblities over the kids? What is the legal issues here? She has a big part in destroying my marriage too and probably thinks she had a free ride! Please adice.
Rome Power
Hi Rome Power:
I don’t get that you could or will follow my advice. You just can’t get out of your mess from here. You are as they say, enroute to crashing and burning and you have yet to hit bottom. It hasn’t cost you enough yet. It appears to me that you will try and hurt her and her husband because you are stuck in blame. You say, “...she had a big part in destroying my marriage… ” I assure you your marriage was doomed before you brought her into your life. In truth before you even got married, so predictable was the outcome, what with your code of ethics.
There are just so many things that you have yet to learn. Lying begets lying for one. It can do nothing else. Liars always attract liars.
I do know that if you play out this drama, trying to hurt others you are in for some tough times. The karma of spite and blame is not pretty. Quite often it affects one’s health.
My advice? Not another conversation with her, and, please get about twenty-four 50-minute sessions of counseling or therapy else you’ll drag this stuff into your next relationship, if not jail.
Thanks for reaching out.
Gabby
I don’t get that you could or will follow my advice. You just can’t get out of your mess from here. You are as they say, enroute to crashing and burning and you have yet to hit bottom. It hasn’t cost you enough yet. It appears to me that you will try and hurt her and her husband because you are stuck in blame. You say, “...she had a big part in destroying my marriage… ” I assure you your marriage was doomed before you brought her into your life. In truth before you even got married, so predictable was the outcome, what with your code of ethics.
There are just so many things that you have yet to learn. Lying begets lying for one. It can do nothing else. Liars always attract liars.
I do know that if you play out this drama, trying to hurt others you are in for some tough times. The karma of spite and blame is not pretty. Quite often it affects one’s health.
My advice? Not another conversation with her, and, please get about twenty-four 50-minute sessions of counseling or therapy else you’ll drag this stuff into your next relationship, if not jail.
Thanks for reaching out.
Gabby
-
romepower
Dear Gabby thanks for your reply. What do you really mean by 'you have yet to hit bottom'? I'm already suffering, what's next?
Should I tell my wife about this? Does she needs to know or would it make me feel better by confessing it?
My anger about the woman in the affair is because she made dream about us together by saying things she told and promised me, the most beautiful things someone could hear. Don't you think her husband should know what she did? Or she should also pay the price of what she did? My feelings are hurt and my heart is broken.
Please tell me what type of counseling or therapy I should get? Is it marriage counseling? I'll be divorced in two months if nothing changes.
Please advice.
Rome Power
Should I tell my wife about this? Does she needs to know or would it make me feel better by confessing it?
My anger about the woman in the affair is because she made dream about us together by saying things she told and promised me, the most beautiful things someone could hear. Don't you think her husband should know what she did? Or she should also pay the price of what she did? My feelings are hurt and my heart is broken.
Please tell me what type of counseling or therapy I should get? Is it marriage counseling? I'll be divorced in two months if nothing changes.
Please advice.
Rome Power
Hi Rome Power:
You are welcome.
I mean that it will get worse before it gets better for you. How do I know? Because I’ve been there. As long as you have thoughts of retribution and spite, and of wanting to hurt someone for the mess you created, you haven’t learned what this is all about. Your question, “…should I tell my wife?” is further proof. You got yourself into this mess by deceiving and lying and now you ask if you should keep deceiving your wife?
Notice that even after you read my reply, that you are stuck in blame, you not only wrote, “My anger about the woman in the affair is because she made…” but you were not conscious enough to catch yourself and choose not to blame. "she made" is blame. And, you lie, that’s not the source of your anger. Until you tell the truth about what your anger is about it will persist.
Re: "Don't you think her husband should know what she did?" At some level he does. And, your task is to choose not to engage in any more adversarial conversations. Trying to punish him means you haven’t been punished enough. Now you want to add another perpetration for which you will later regret. Punishing him or her will merely pile on karmic consequences for yourself on top of what you have already accumulated.
I do get that you are experiencing frustration and pain.
A relationship counselor or therapist will work. Ask him/her to work with you to locate the first incidents in which you lied, deceived, and withheld thoughts from your parents. That’s three separate time and place communications. That’s where this cheating and withholding began. This stuff you’re experiencing now is all drama, it’s your integrity at work, supporting you in cleaning up your first perpetrations, the ones you thought you got away with that have been running you to this very day. Ask for support in completing your relationship with your parents. You’re dragging too much baggage around.
Please don’t post again until you have completed my recommended 24 50-minute sessions. Nothing that comes from your present mind-set will support you in being complete. Any conversations you engage others in about this mess, without a commitment to 24 sessions, will only dump your problems in other’s space.
Thanks, Gabby
You are welcome.
I mean that it will get worse before it gets better for you. How do I know? Because I’ve been there. As long as you have thoughts of retribution and spite, and of wanting to hurt someone for the mess you created, you haven’t learned what this is all about. Your question, “…should I tell my wife?” is further proof. You got yourself into this mess by deceiving and lying and now you ask if you should keep deceiving your wife?
Notice that even after you read my reply, that you are stuck in blame, you not only wrote, “My anger about the woman in the affair is because she made…” but you were not conscious enough to catch yourself and choose not to blame. "she made" is blame. And, you lie, that’s not the source of your anger. Until you tell the truth about what your anger is about it will persist.
Re: "Don't you think her husband should know what she did?" At some level he does. And, your task is to choose not to engage in any more adversarial conversations. Trying to punish him means you haven’t been punished enough. Now you want to add another perpetration for which you will later regret. Punishing him or her will merely pile on karmic consequences for yourself on top of what you have already accumulated.
I do get that you are experiencing frustration and pain.
A relationship counselor or therapist will work. Ask him/her to work with you to locate the first incidents in which you lied, deceived, and withheld thoughts from your parents. That’s three separate time and place communications. That’s where this cheating and withholding began. This stuff you’re experiencing now is all drama, it’s your integrity at work, supporting you in cleaning up your first perpetrations, the ones you thought you got away with that have been running you to this very day. Ask for support in completing your relationship with your parents. You’re dragging too much baggage around.
Please don’t post again until you have completed my recommended 24 50-minute sessions. Nothing that comes from your present mind-set will support you in being complete. Any conversations you engage others in about this mess, without a commitment to 24 sessions, will only dump your problems in other’s space.
Thanks, Gabby
Hi jlperkins:
I believe most divorced women who have been in an abusive relationship (what you are co-creating with him is abusive) would advise you to dump him. However, that solution (it doesn't matter whether it's "fair" or not) doesn’t address the source of the problem. Specifically, what is it about you and your leadership-communication model that does not inspire honesty? How did he know, with absolute certainty, that he could cheat the first time, let alone again, and that you’d still hang out with him? Believe it or not it’s written right on your forehead. “Cheat on me. I’m a pushover. I need to be used and abused. I don’t respect me and I sure don’t expect you to respect me. Let’s just pretend that we’re going to be honest with each other.”
That you can’t tell when he’s just come back from an assignation tells volumes about how unconscious you are. You are stuck doing your imitation of communication.
A person who operates from integrity simply would not go out with such a person. There’s something in a cheater’s aura. You can’t tell because you have not made the commitment to operate from integrity. You yourself cheat, perhaps only differently.
The level of integrity you operate at determines the kinds of problems you generate. That you have held (probably since childhood) the belief that it's OK to be deceptive if the reason is good enough, even before you sneakily listened to his cell phone messages, say reams about you. Sneaky people attract sneaky people. Your mind will argue, “…but he sneaked first.” Yes, and, you were a dormant sneaky person waiting for a chance to do it again. I say, "do it again" because what all this is about is your own karma, bringing up for you the opportunity to see yourself in him. That is to say, you have one or more unacknowledged sneaky, cheating, deceitful incidents that you have yet to clean up. Once you do you will have no need to bring cheaters into your life. You will no longer deserve to attract cheaters. Your aura will communicate honesty. The advertisement (seeking fellow liar) will disappear from your forehead.
Now to him. I don’t believe that he will do enough therapy/counselling on his own to get to the source of his addiction to abuse. Most would agree that he will do just enough to be able to keep you around. And, he will cleverly, unconsciously, select a therapist whom he can manipulate and hide from—one who does not support clients in communicating from cause. Worse yet, you are completely unaware that he has no choice around you but to cheat. You are the leader. A mature woman just doesn’t date a 15-year old boy, which is where he’s stuck. You aren’t a safe space for him to tell the truth to. And, if it were possible for him to suddenly heal he would no longer be attracted to the sneaky wimp in you.
Now, here’s the biggie: He can never heal with you in his life. You are the source, the leader. Until you get healed, he can’t. It’s you who are addicted to abusing and being abused. You attracted someone who mirrors you.
If you were my daughter I’d say, “I don’t want to talk to you any more until you can tell me that you have told him that he must complete 24 50-minute sessions with a therapist/counselor before you will engage in any more conversations, interactions, e-mails, cards, phone messages, etc. with him. I just don’t want to deal with these kinds of problems.” You have got to extract yourself from the abuse and prove to yourself that you no longer attract abuse. Else you are lying saying that you want an abuse-free life. My sense is that you are so addicted that you will still be interacting with him a year from now and still generating problems of trust, still setting it up for him to lie to you so that you get to be right that he’s sicker than you. I don't get that you will leave him and enroll in your own therapy program.
This stuff is a covert make-wrong of your parents. It hurts them tremendously to see you treating yourself this way. It invalidates them and all they want for you in life. You do it to punish them for some unacknowledged incident.
As mentioned above I’d recommend that your marriage vow include words to the effect: If ever you cheat that will be your communication to me that you no longer wish to be married. You now agree that you will move out and forfeit all rights to child custody and possessions. There will be no second chance. Is there any doubt that I mean this? Good, sign here, and I’ll do the same for you.” This is what’s called creating a context for zero cheating. It’s also referred to as intentional communication. You already do communicate intentionally, it's just that you have been communicating, "Cheat on me—support me in cleaning up my past" and have not known it except by the results.
If this reply is of value a donation will anchor the value for you in a way that you will create that communication has taken place between us. We’ll know because you will have completed your relationship with him.
With aloha, Gabby
I believe most divorced women who have been in an abusive relationship (what you are co-creating with him is abusive) would advise you to dump him. However, that solution (it doesn't matter whether it's "fair" or not) doesn’t address the source of the problem. Specifically, what is it about you and your leadership-communication model that does not inspire honesty? How did he know, with absolute certainty, that he could cheat the first time, let alone again, and that you’d still hang out with him? Believe it or not it’s written right on your forehead. “Cheat on me. I’m a pushover. I need to be used and abused. I don’t respect me and I sure don’t expect you to respect me. Let’s just pretend that we’re going to be honest with each other.”
That you can’t tell when he’s just come back from an assignation tells volumes about how unconscious you are. You are stuck doing your imitation of communication.
A person who operates from integrity simply would not go out with such a person. There’s something in a cheater’s aura. You can’t tell because you have not made the commitment to operate from integrity. You yourself cheat, perhaps only differently.
The level of integrity you operate at determines the kinds of problems you generate. That you have held (probably since childhood) the belief that it's OK to be deceptive if the reason is good enough, even before you sneakily listened to his cell phone messages, say reams about you. Sneaky people attract sneaky people. Your mind will argue, “…but he sneaked first.” Yes, and, you were a dormant sneaky person waiting for a chance to do it again. I say, "do it again" because what all this is about is your own karma, bringing up for you the opportunity to see yourself in him. That is to say, you have one or more unacknowledged sneaky, cheating, deceitful incidents that you have yet to clean up. Once you do you will have no need to bring cheaters into your life. You will no longer deserve to attract cheaters. Your aura will communicate honesty. The advertisement (seeking fellow liar) will disappear from your forehead.
Now to him. I don’t believe that he will do enough therapy/counselling on his own to get to the source of his addiction to abuse. Most would agree that he will do just enough to be able to keep you around. And, he will cleverly, unconsciously, select a therapist whom he can manipulate and hide from—one who does not support clients in communicating from cause. Worse yet, you are completely unaware that he has no choice around you but to cheat. You are the leader. A mature woman just doesn’t date a 15-year old boy, which is where he’s stuck. You aren’t a safe space for him to tell the truth to. And, if it were possible for him to suddenly heal he would no longer be attracted to the sneaky wimp in you.
Now, here’s the biggie: He can never heal with you in his life. You are the source, the leader. Until you get healed, he can’t. It’s you who are addicted to abusing and being abused. You attracted someone who mirrors you.
If you were my daughter I’d say, “I don’t want to talk to you any more until you can tell me that you have told him that he must complete 24 50-minute sessions with a therapist/counselor before you will engage in any more conversations, interactions, e-mails, cards, phone messages, etc. with him. I just don’t want to deal with these kinds of problems.” You have got to extract yourself from the abuse and prove to yourself that you no longer attract abuse. Else you are lying saying that you want an abuse-free life. My sense is that you are so addicted that you will still be interacting with him a year from now and still generating problems of trust, still setting it up for him to lie to you so that you get to be right that he’s sicker than you. I don't get that you will leave him and enroll in your own therapy program.
This stuff is a covert make-wrong of your parents. It hurts them tremendously to see you treating yourself this way. It invalidates them and all they want for you in life. You do it to punish them for some unacknowledged incident.
As mentioned above I’d recommend that your marriage vow include words to the effect: If ever you cheat that will be your communication to me that you no longer wish to be married. You now agree that you will move out and forfeit all rights to child custody and possessions. There will be no second chance. Is there any doubt that I mean this? Good, sign here, and I’ll do the same for you.” This is what’s called creating a context for zero cheating. It’s also referred to as intentional communication. You already do communicate intentionally, it's just that you have been communicating, "Cheat on me—support me in cleaning up my past" and have not known it except by the results.
If this reply is of value a donation will anchor the value for you in a way that you will create that communication has taken place between us. We’ll know because you will have completed your relationship with him.
With aloha, Gabby
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confused_and_hurt
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:20 am
Dear Gabby,
My wife admitted to me last night that she has broken off a 4 year affair with a person that was a mutual friend of ours. The last time she slept with him was 3 months ago. She was very sorry and said that if I wanted to divorce her all she wants are her cloths and she would leave. We have one son together, 9 years old.
I am very dedicated to my family, they are everything to me and I love my wife and child with all my heart so this is devasting to me emotionally. I don't want to divorce, I would rather save the marriage and she says she loves me and would also like to save the marriage.
Also, I have known the man she had the affair with for several years, I am debating on contacting him and telling him to stay away from me and my family. I don't intend to threaten him, or to tell his wife, but I feel the need to contact him, man to man, and warn him off. He apparently has shown up at my wifes work in the mornings and argued with her, made accusations and called her names.
I am not sure what to do at this point, perhaps marriage counselling, I am not involved with a church but think that maybe if we become involved with a good church that may help (my father is a minister on the other side of the state, so I come from a religious family).
Confused and hurt
My wife admitted to me last night that she has broken off a 4 year affair with a person that was a mutual friend of ours. The last time she slept with him was 3 months ago. She was very sorry and said that if I wanted to divorce her all she wants are her cloths and she would leave. We have one son together, 9 years old.
I am very dedicated to my family, they are everything to me and I love my wife and child with all my heart so this is devasting to me emotionally. I don't want to divorce, I would rather save the marriage and she says she loves me and would also like to save the marriage.
Also, I have known the man she had the affair with for several years, I am debating on contacting him and telling him to stay away from me and my family. I don't intend to threaten him, or to tell his wife, but I feel the need to contact him, man to man, and warn him off. He apparently has shown up at my wifes work in the mornings and argued with her, made accusations and called her names.
I am not sure what to do at this point, perhaps marriage counselling, I am not involved with a church but think that maybe if we become involved with a good church that may help (my father is a minister on the other side of the state, so I come from a religious family).
Confused and hurt
Hi Confused and Hurt:
The chances of communication taking place between us (you and me) are virtually nil. Even after reading this entire thread you write: "I am debating on contacting him and telling him to stay away from me and my family." No way could it turn out mutually satisfying, not from your present blaming, victim, mind-set.
You say you want to save your marriage and that’s just what you will do. You will save what you call a marriage, and so you’ll save something that doesn't work. Complete your relationship and start with new agreements. If you were my son I’d advise you to stay completely away from her until she has completed 25-hours of therapy. And, until you have done the same. Else you’ll both be dumping more of the same drama on all of us for years. And, if you ignored my advise, I'd stay away from you, else I'd be lying when I say I intend to relate with people who are supportable and committed to having life work.
You have one thing going for you. You reached out. Most men try to solve the problem themselves. To paraphrase Einstein, it doesn’t work to try and solve the problem with the mind that created it. How you communicate, your leadership-communication skills, not only doesn't inspire honesty, it produces cheating. You will continue to do so until you commit yourself to therapy or counsellings to locate the childhood incident, a specific conversation that caused you to go unconscious.
I say “unconscious” because no conscious person could interact with their loved one and not experience the (her) perpetration. It was in her aura. This means that you also have one or more big unacknowledged withholds or perpetrations that you have been hiding from her/others. People with unacknowledged deceptions attract others who have the same stuff going on, that’s why they can’t see it in others. You lost your ability to sense her dissatisfactions, to get her non-verbal communications, that she was not happy and looking elsewhere. You were not a safe space for her to tell you the truth, and, no matter what you believe, you still aren’t. Do not believe that she was not looking before she found him. We know she was by the results. We also know that you were unconsciously intending for her to cheat. Just because you can’t see it yet doesn’t mean it’s not true. Your mind most likely will hide that realization from you, probably until you’ve crashed and burned.
There are a couple of things you’ll need to confront:
1) That you intuitively knew she was not honest. To pretend that you didn’t know won’t work. She gave you many many clues, comments about movies, Clinton, or other’s relationships, that attempted to communicate to you her unacknowledged withholds and perpetrations.
2) That you set it up for her to be the bad guy, the cheater. I assure you, if you were my client we’d uncover that you lie and cheat, and deceive, just differently. Most assuredly you have several unacknowledged perps between you and your folks. Your arrogance is such that you thought you could sustain happiness without cleaning up the lies and deceits.
Re: He apparently has shown up at my wife’s work in the mornings and argued with her, made accusations and called her names. "Apparently?" You should be clear about such things. You need to acknowledge to yourself that you are just as addicted to abuse, to both abusing and being abused as she is. We know this to be true from the results. If an unwanted person shows up to an actualized person’s place of work the person communicates, "Please leave and never come here again." and they turn around and return to work not uttering a word no matter what comes back at them. She was intent on arguing because that's what she created. Worse, she blames him for arguing. If he shows up again, they would tell the person that if they show or call again she’ll consider it harassment and that she’ll call the police if he shows again. Now that's what a person would do who doesn’t need their daily fix of abuse, one who has no need of being punished for a life-time of unacknowledged perpetrations.
Re: I am not sure what to do at this point, perhaps marriage counseling," "Perhaps?" "Counseling" yes. "Marriage counseling" No. This is stuff you brought into the relationship. You have to get to the point where you should have been when you first met her. That is to say, an actualized (conscious) young man, one who operates from integrity, would have sensed immediately that she had some incompletes (baggage) she was dragging around waiting for a husband to trigger them. It would have been evident by noticing the quality of her relationships with her parents. You would have known back then that she needs a lot of therapy and that you had no business dating an immature child. That you couldn’t sense her guilt when she came home from her assignations tells us that you were unconscious—also that you had never been in communication with anyone. Once one has the experience of being in communication one cannot go back. The experience of integrity is such a that a single thought withheld becomes as a “mote in thine eye.” Open and honest and spontaneous communication is essential for an expanding relationship.
You have a tremendous number of unacknowledged perpetrations and withholds with your father. After all, you learned the adversarial communication model from him. I assure you, your mother withholds hundreds of thoughts from him. Myself, I’ve never met a clergy person who communicates openly and honestly and spontaneously. It’s not possible to experience the experience of communication with someone who is not willing to let go of all their positions, especially, "God is . . ." or, "Jesus is . . ." or, "My way is right or better than yours."
It’s quite possible that you have an unconscious decision to not be like your father, in which case you’ve spent a lot of energy trying to not be like him. Consequently, you have had no choice, and no idea who you are. My sense is that "church" would be good for you, but not with your wife, or for the reason of saving your marriage. You will either make it (church/religion) work for you or you’ll get clear why you’ve intuitively rejected it. At least you’ll then be operating from choice.
Do keep in mind that there is no way you can change your wife. She will either cheat again or not. It’s not unlike the first time you lied to your dad. It seemed that trust was gone for life, that you could never ever regain it. However, it’s possible, if and only if, you acknowledge your cause in the matter and she acks her’s. The odds are that unless she undergoes 25-hours of therapy she’ll not get to the source of her anger. No matter what she says she has lost much respect for you. That you were so out of touch with her, so out of communication, that she could cheat under you nose, leaves a nagging experience of disrespect and contempt that she doesn’t even know she has. Am "actualized man” would have prevented it/nipped it in the bud. The "contempt" is that she could manipulate you so easily. If you give in again it will only compound matters. If you both do the "no interactions game" for as long as it takes for each to complete the therapy assignment, you might find out that neither of you are attracted to the other, that at the beginning what each required was someone to con.
Please do not reply/post until you can say you have not been in communication with her (except for logistics. This means no, "How have you been?" No presents, cards, personal messages, etc.) for six months in a row, and, you have completed your 25 hours.
If you got value from this reply it would work for you to acknowledge it with a donation. A donation anchors the value for you and supports us in sharing the process with others.
Thanks for the great post,
Gabby
P.S. Because we have talked about your wife you need to show her our communications. However, the same "do not reply" conditions pertains to her.
The chances of communication taking place between us (you and me) are virtually nil. Even after reading this entire thread you write: "I am debating on contacting him and telling him to stay away from me and my family." No way could it turn out mutually satisfying, not from your present blaming, victim, mind-set.
You say you want to save your marriage and that’s just what you will do. You will save what you call a marriage, and so you’ll save something that doesn't work. Complete your relationship and start with new agreements. If you were my son I’d advise you to stay completely away from her until she has completed 25-hours of therapy. And, until you have done the same. Else you’ll both be dumping more of the same drama on all of us for years. And, if you ignored my advise, I'd stay away from you, else I'd be lying when I say I intend to relate with people who are supportable and committed to having life work.
You have one thing going for you. You reached out. Most men try to solve the problem themselves. To paraphrase Einstein, it doesn’t work to try and solve the problem with the mind that created it. How you communicate, your leadership-communication skills, not only doesn't inspire honesty, it produces cheating. You will continue to do so until you commit yourself to therapy or counsellings to locate the childhood incident, a specific conversation that caused you to go unconscious.
I say “unconscious” because no conscious person could interact with their loved one and not experience the (her) perpetration. It was in her aura. This means that you also have one or more big unacknowledged withholds or perpetrations that you have been hiding from her/others. People with unacknowledged deceptions attract others who have the same stuff going on, that’s why they can’t see it in others. You lost your ability to sense her dissatisfactions, to get her non-verbal communications, that she was not happy and looking elsewhere. You were not a safe space for her to tell you the truth, and, no matter what you believe, you still aren’t. Do not believe that she was not looking before she found him. We know she was by the results. We also know that you were unconsciously intending for her to cheat. Just because you can’t see it yet doesn’t mean it’s not true. Your mind most likely will hide that realization from you, probably until you’ve crashed and burned.
There are a couple of things you’ll need to confront:
1) That you intuitively knew she was not honest. To pretend that you didn’t know won’t work. She gave you many many clues, comments about movies, Clinton, or other’s relationships, that attempted to communicate to you her unacknowledged withholds and perpetrations.
2) That you set it up for her to be the bad guy, the cheater. I assure you, if you were my client we’d uncover that you lie and cheat, and deceive, just differently. Most assuredly you have several unacknowledged perps between you and your folks. Your arrogance is such that you thought you could sustain happiness without cleaning up the lies and deceits.
Re: He apparently has shown up at my wife’s work in the mornings and argued with her, made accusations and called her names. "Apparently?" You should be clear about such things. You need to acknowledge to yourself that you are just as addicted to abuse, to both abusing and being abused as she is. We know this to be true from the results. If an unwanted person shows up to an actualized person’s place of work the person communicates, "Please leave and never come here again." and they turn around and return to work not uttering a word no matter what comes back at them. She was intent on arguing because that's what she created. Worse, she blames him for arguing. If he shows up again, they would tell the person that if they show or call again she’ll consider it harassment and that she’ll call the police if he shows again. Now that's what a person would do who doesn’t need their daily fix of abuse, one who has no need of being punished for a life-time of unacknowledged perpetrations.
Re: I am not sure what to do at this point, perhaps marriage counseling," "Perhaps?" "Counseling" yes. "Marriage counseling" No. This is stuff you brought into the relationship. You have to get to the point where you should have been when you first met her. That is to say, an actualized (conscious) young man, one who operates from integrity, would have sensed immediately that she had some incompletes (baggage) she was dragging around waiting for a husband to trigger them. It would have been evident by noticing the quality of her relationships with her parents. You would have known back then that she needs a lot of therapy and that you had no business dating an immature child. That you couldn’t sense her guilt when she came home from her assignations tells us that you were unconscious—also that you had never been in communication with anyone. Once one has the experience of being in communication one cannot go back. The experience of integrity is such a that a single thought withheld becomes as a “mote in thine eye.” Open and honest and spontaneous communication is essential for an expanding relationship.
You have a tremendous number of unacknowledged perpetrations and withholds with your father. After all, you learned the adversarial communication model from him. I assure you, your mother withholds hundreds of thoughts from him. Myself, I’ve never met a clergy person who communicates openly and honestly and spontaneously. It’s not possible to experience the experience of communication with someone who is not willing to let go of all their positions, especially, "God is . . ." or, "Jesus is . . ." or, "My way is right or better than yours."
It’s quite possible that you have an unconscious decision to not be like your father, in which case you’ve spent a lot of energy trying to not be like him. Consequently, you have had no choice, and no idea who you are. My sense is that "church" would be good for you, but not with your wife, or for the reason of saving your marriage. You will either make it (church/religion) work for you or you’ll get clear why you’ve intuitively rejected it. At least you’ll then be operating from choice.
Do keep in mind that there is no way you can change your wife. She will either cheat again or not. It’s not unlike the first time you lied to your dad. It seemed that trust was gone for life, that you could never ever regain it. However, it’s possible, if and only if, you acknowledge your cause in the matter and she acks her’s. The odds are that unless she undergoes 25-hours of therapy she’ll not get to the source of her anger. No matter what she says she has lost much respect for you. That you were so out of touch with her, so out of communication, that she could cheat under you nose, leaves a nagging experience of disrespect and contempt that she doesn’t even know she has. Am "actualized man” would have prevented it/nipped it in the bud. The "contempt" is that she could manipulate you so easily. If you give in again it will only compound matters. If you both do the "no interactions game" for as long as it takes for each to complete the therapy assignment, you might find out that neither of you are attracted to the other, that at the beginning what each required was someone to con.
Please do not reply/post until you can say you have not been in communication with her (except for logistics. This means no, "How have you been?" No presents, cards, personal messages, etc.) for six months in a row, and, you have completed your 25 hours.
If you got value from this reply it would work for you to acknowledge it with a donation. A donation anchors the value for you and supports us in sharing the process with others.
Thanks for the great post,
Gabby
P.S. Because we have talked about your wife you need to show her our communications. However, the same "do not reply" conditions pertains to her.
Last edited by Gabby on Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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sacamuelas
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:33 am
hi Gabby:
i just wanted to see if there is a way to forgive a ww.
my story:
married 24 years
2 children 16 and 11 yo
my afair started and ended last summer did not last more than one night,
told wife the i had an affair and that i felt guilty, and remorse (the girl in question does not know anyone in the famaily)
at the same time i told my wife she told me that she had an affair with a co-worker prior she was hire by him, (there was a big push to have this job uprooted all the family and belonging to be in the town where she is working i had to quit my job then, i made a lot of sacrifices to be with her)
this affair happened 18 years ago. She says that it was a one night stand but there has been contact everyday and workshops even wrote a book together, he has been married 2 times, i have discovered that he has been abusing children in his care even his foster child, his 1st wife divorced him for been so candid with his conquests, is there a way to make her understand that what i am not mad is her affair but the sharing of my family moments (he became a frien of the family and he always boosted about having sex with under 18 yo girls), i have defended him in many ways during our "friendship years" he has come and even requested to be a good father of one of my children (Thank god i refused), have comfronted him and he denied all the afair, i have talked with his wife about his problems, at this moment in life i feel that my wife has lied to me because every time i ask her where when and how her affair happend and she can not answered with facts always has been "i do not remember" either way i feel she is laying and or she has lied to me i am so confused , did she told me that she had an affair just to meake me feel what she felt about mine, or to make me going creazy some times i want to tel her to pack her beloning and go somewhere else, i have asked for the truth but she has said that it was so long ago and our marrige is more important that i should leave the past in the past and start looking in the future with her
please help me
sacamuelas
i just wanted to see if there is a way to forgive a ww.
my story:
married 24 years
2 children 16 and 11 yo
my afair started and ended last summer did not last more than one night,
told wife the i had an affair and that i felt guilty, and remorse (the girl in question does not know anyone in the famaily)
at the same time i told my wife she told me that she had an affair with a co-worker prior she was hire by him, (there was a big push to have this job uprooted all the family and belonging to be in the town where she is working i had to quit my job then, i made a lot of sacrifices to be with her)
this affair happened 18 years ago. She says that it was a one night stand but there has been contact everyday and workshops even wrote a book together, he has been married 2 times, i have discovered that he has been abusing children in his care even his foster child, his 1st wife divorced him for been so candid with his conquests, is there a way to make her understand that what i am not mad is her affair but the sharing of my family moments (he became a frien of the family and he always boosted about having sex with under 18 yo girls), i have defended him in many ways during our "friendship years" he has come and even requested to be a good father of one of my children (Thank god i refused), have comfronted him and he denied all the afair, i have talked with his wife about his problems, at this moment in life i feel that my wife has lied to me because every time i ask her where when and how her affair happend and she can not answered with facts always has been "i do not remember" either way i feel she is laying and or she has lied to me i am so confused , did she told me that she had an affair just to meake me feel what she felt about mine, or to make me going creazy some times i want to tel her to pack her beloning and go somewhere else, i have asked for the truth but she has said that it was so long ago and our marrige is more important that i should leave the past in the past and start looking in the future with her
please help me
sacamuelas
Hi sacamuelas:
We’ve got several things going here.
First: It’s a bit of a challenge to be with your post because of the unconscious disrespect. It’s not a letter written by someone intent on bringing about resolution. It reveals that you are attached to the drama. Things haven’t gotten bad enough for you to seriously apply yourself to bringing about a resolution yet. Your problem doesn’t appear to be important enough for you to want me to do my best because you didn’t do your best when composing it. A rushed, sloppily written, question = a similar answer. It communicates disrespect of me. I’m wondering who on the planet you respect enough to compose a letter (spelling and correct capitalizations) as you know how? Possibly you are on medication or drugs?
Second: You and I learned how to communicate by emulating the communication model of our parents, teachers, and peers. It’s referred to as the Adversarial Communication Model. One of the characteristics of this model is the addiction to blaming and to communicating to be right as opposed to being complete. You are addicted to blaming and can’t see it. This is called being unconscious. For example: You relate that she won’t answer your question. A responsible person would write, “I don’t know how to get answers to some of my questions. What am I doing wrong?” You see, it has nothing to do with her. It’s all about intention. Your intention thus far has been to have her avoid telling you the truth. I’m absolutely clear that she would answer my questions. For one, I’m willing to not have the relationship. If I asked a question and she replied that she didn’t remember I’d walk away saying, “Let me know when you’re willing to answer my questions.” and not talk to her ever again, except for logistics, until she began with, “I’m ready to remember.” It is unethical to control another, to set them up to ask a question and then keep them incomplete by not answering it. It’s unethical of you to hang around someone like that. It’s suicidal; it detracts from your very aliveness.
Third: You threaten to walk away but she doubts you mean it as do I. It’s what’s called posturing. It’s an empty threat. I say I doubt it because my sense you’ll still be interacting with her next month or a year from now, not having your questions answered. Her lie is, “…our marriage is more important.” if this were true she’d answer your questions through to satisfaction. What’s more important to her is to control you, to keep you incomplete, and to hide the truth. In any case, if you did leave her you’d still have the same problem, of setting it up for women to manipulate you and lie (by avoidance) to you, so that you get to make them wrong. People lie when the respect is gone. Perhaps it was never there.
You ask, “…is there a way to make her understand that what i am not mad is her affair but the sharing of my family moments” This is your lie. It’s not what you are upset about. It may have been one of the things that you were upset about but it’s not the biggie. How do we know? We know because when you tell the truth, (it’s something you have yet to acknowledge even to yourself), the communicating of it will disappear your upset. The incident will be complete.
You ask if there is “…a way to forgive a ww.” There is, but you first have to be willing to acknowledge to yourself that you manipulated her into cheating on you. Responsibility is not a 50-50 thing. When you accept responsibility (I’ll add 100% here to emphasize that it’s always 100%) there is none left for her to take. If you’re willing to do that then forgiveness is a moot point. Why would you forgive someone for doing what you manipulated them into doing, so that you could get clear about your addictions and master telling the truth? Just because you can’t see that you masterminded the whole drama doesn’t make it any the less true. Something about your communication-leadership model drove her into other’s arms. That you could be so unconscious, that you couldn’t tell she was carrying around a huge perpetration, is proof that you were merely doing your imitation of communication with her. Had it not been her you would have had to bring someone else into your life to “do it to you.”
Now what’s this all about? You are hiding something from her. You have a huge withhold, a thought, an incident, a perpetration, which you are hiding from her (quite possibly from before your marriage). Communicate it and you’ll not have to play this game any more. This is all part of your enlightenment curriculum. Cool huh? Thanks, for writing, Gabby
We’ve got several things going here.
First: It’s a bit of a challenge to be with your post because of the unconscious disrespect. It’s not a letter written by someone intent on bringing about resolution. It reveals that you are attached to the drama. Things haven’t gotten bad enough for you to seriously apply yourself to bringing about a resolution yet. Your problem doesn’t appear to be important enough for you to want me to do my best because you didn’t do your best when composing it. A rushed, sloppily written, question = a similar answer. It communicates disrespect of me. I’m wondering who on the planet you respect enough to compose a letter (spelling and correct capitalizations) as you know how? Possibly you are on medication or drugs?
Second: You and I learned how to communicate by emulating the communication model of our parents, teachers, and peers. It’s referred to as the Adversarial Communication Model. One of the characteristics of this model is the addiction to blaming and to communicating to be right as opposed to being complete. You are addicted to blaming and can’t see it. This is called being unconscious. For example: You relate that she won’t answer your question. A responsible person would write, “I don’t know how to get answers to some of my questions. What am I doing wrong?” You see, it has nothing to do with her. It’s all about intention. Your intention thus far has been to have her avoid telling you the truth. I’m absolutely clear that she would answer my questions. For one, I’m willing to not have the relationship. If I asked a question and she replied that she didn’t remember I’d walk away saying, “Let me know when you’re willing to answer my questions.” and not talk to her ever again, except for logistics, until she began with, “I’m ready to remember.” It is unethical to control another, to set them up to ask a question and then keep them incomplete by not answering it. It’s unethical of you to hang around someone like that. It’s suicidal; it detracts from your very aliveness.
Third: You threaten to walk away but she doubts you mean it as do I. It’s what’s called posturing. It’s an empty threat. I say I doubt it because my sense you’ll still be interacting with her next month or a year from now, not having your questions answered. Her lie is, “…our marriage is more important.” if this were true she’d answer your questions through to satisfaction. What’s more important to her is to control you, to keep you incomplete, and to hide the truth. In any case, if you did leave her you’d still have the same problem, of setting it up for women to manipulate you and lie (by avoidance) to you, so that you get to make them wrong. People lie when the respect is gone. Perhaps it was never there.
You ask, “…is there a way to make her understand that what i am not mad is her affair but the sharing of my family moments” This is your lie. It’s not what you are upset about. It may have been one of the things that you were upset about but it’s not the biggie. How do we know? We know because when you tell the truth, (it’s something you have yet to acknowledge even to yourself), the communicating of it will disappear your upset. The incident will be complete.
You ask if there is “…a way to forgive a ww.” There is, but you first have to be willing to acknowledge to yourself that you manipulated her into cheating on you. Responsibility is not a 50-50 thing. When you accept responsibility (I’ll add 100% here to emphasize that it’s always 100%) there is none left for her to take. If you’re willing to do that then forgiveness is a moot point. Why would you forgive someone for doing what you manipulated them into doing, so that you could get clear about your addictions and master telling the truth? Just because you can’t see that you masterminded the whole drama doesn’t make it any the less true. Something about your communication-leadership model drove her into other’s arms. That you could be so unconscious, that you couldn’t tell she was carrying around a huge perpetration, is proof that you were merely doing your imitation of communication with her. Had it not been her you would have had to bring someone else into your life to “do it to you.”
Now what’s this all about? You are hiding something from her. You have a huge withhold, a thought, an incident, a perpetration, which you are hiding from her (quite possibly from before your marriage). Communicate it and you’ll not have to play this game any more. This is all part of your enlightenment curriculum. Cool huh? Thanks, for writing, Gabby
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sacamuelas
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:33 am
Hi Gabby:
I want to appologize for my disrespectfull ways, but this is my second langage and it tends to be confusing the spelling and the correct grammar,
Some background:
I am from South America (different traditions than North America)
I came from a disfunctional family (my parents divorced when I was 13 yo)
I did not finished even High School.
I am Catholic Christian (as the mayority of the population in South America).
I learned from my childhood that cheating between parents is not acceptable (my father did), I promised that i will not be like my dad, there are traditions that I forego when i meet my wife,
some traditions that are not important anymore for me, I followed her across 3 countries, becouse she was not comfortable in my country, when we settle for a while, then she decieded that she was not happy in the west coast and we moved to the east coast, to be closed by with her family, I had good jobs everytime we move, and so do she, still i followed her, we settle in a small city in the east coast, I got a night job and we seem not to habe problems, she worked during the day and travel around the state a lot, i never question her, in 1985 there where events in south america that jeopardized the life of my family (Mother and Sibilings), to the point that for about 6 month,s i did not have any contact with my family, early 1986 i finaly contact my family and my wife anounced that she wanted children and that we needed to settle down and have a home, we bought a house and settle in a rutine, me working nights and her working days (she knew i did not wanted to have children and wanted a vasectomy when we got married and she did not wanted me to have one) about this time in the move to a new house she had her affair with a person who she helped as part of her job, she never told me about it she knew that I will walk away, we had a child about a year letter, we continued to live "happily" for about 4 years, the individual which she had the affair offered a job at her company and the push for her to accept the job was tremendous to the point that she told me that was the job or nothing (I was oposed to the move), I gave up and we moved (sold house and moved all in 2 days) also because the distance I have to quit my job, from there it has been downhill the town I live in do not accept foreingers at all or the interracial marrige, When we bought the house we are in the lawyer recomended to put the deed on her name, finding a job it has been a constant battle from the begining, I have more quialifications than most people applying for the same jobs in my field, still because my race and not been related to no one, the jobs are given to someone else, fortunaly I work from the city. I always have done and see what makes her happy and accepted
For the past 10 years my wife have pushed me to make friends with him and i always had something telling me to be carefull, untill i told her of his escapades with manors she stoped to force the friendship, she started to "hate" about this time, and now she can no even stand in the same room, when he anounced his first divorce, my relations with my wife where much better about a year latter he anounced a marrige with a co-worker and my relations went to hell, untill prior my affair, everything i do was wrong, that i had to bring more to our home and more to our relation still there always have been a wall in between us, and since we meet first there is no way to break that wall, she has told me that her affair happened because we did not spend time together that we did not comunicated, that she wanted to fill wanted and i told her that it is the same that she and i have lost the lust of each other.
Well I think that the truth is:
No comunication, no desire to be with each other, sex (what is that), and from my point of view there has not been trust (if we had trusted each other she will have told me the advances of this person then) from the begining, and there will be no trust ever in both parts we might accepted our affairs but the trust was lost.
I always have been conciencious of her wanted to improve her life and her selfsteem, accepted all her flaws and qualities, belived or not at the begining i noticed the way she handled other people (males mostly)and trusted her blindly, that is the major hurt, (at the moment), one of the set backs is that she and he have been nominated by her church as the most honest and respectfull people in the town award (needless to say she has decline the award on my sugestion)
at her church (we Have different ideas about religion), she always have told that the truth is the most important thing in ones life, that the truth always will come out (and see the reaction when someone lied to her makes me wonder if she has told me the truth about her affair) well let see what happen in the future
thanks Gabby and please forgive my disrespecfulness which is not intended and i am not hideing a thing this time.
P.S.
One more thing yes i had oportunities to cheat but never felt in the trap i always thought that my family was more important than that, untill last year when i needed to feel wanted and human, again plus as i said before i did not wanted to be like my father(he had several affairs).
sacamuelas
I want to appologize for my disrespectfull ways, but this is my second langage and it tends to be confusing the spelling and the correct grammar,
Some background:
I am from South America (different traditions than North America)
I came from a disfunctional family (my parents divorced when I was 13 yo)
I did not finished even High School.
I am Catholic Christian (as the mayority of the population in South America).
I learned from my childhood that cheating between parents is not acceptable (my father did), I promised that i will not be like my dad, there are traditions that I forego when i meet my wife,
some traditions that are not important anymore for me, I followed her across 3 countries, becouse she was not comfortable in my country, when we settle for a while, then she decieded that she was not happy in the west coast and we moved to the east coast, to be closed by with her family, I had good jobs everytime we move, and so do she, still i followed her, we settle in a small city in the east coast, I got a night job and we seem not to habe problems, she worked during the day and travel around the state a lot, i never question her, in 1985 there where events in south america that jeopardized the life of my family (Mother and Sibilings), to the point that for about 6 month,s i did not have any contact with my family, early 1986 i finaly contact my family and my wife anounced that she wanted children and that we needed to settle down and have a home, we bought a house and settle in a rutine, me working nights and her working days (she knew i did not wanted to have children and wanted a vasectomy when we got married and she did not wanted me to have one) about this time in the move to a new house she had her affair with a person who she helped as part of her job, she never told me about it she knew that I will walk away, we had a child about a year letter, we continued to live "happily" for about 4 years, the individual which she had the affair offered a job at her company and the push for her to accept the job was tremendous to the point that she told me that was the job or nothing (I was oposed to the move), I gave up and we moved (sold house and moved all in 2 days) also because the distance I have to quit my job, from there it has been downhill the town I live in do not accept foreingers at all or the interracial marrige, When we bought the house we are in the lawyer recomended to put the deed on her name, finding a job it has been a constant battle from the begining, I have more quialifications than most people applying for the same jobs in my field, still because my race and not been related to no one, the jobs are given to someone else, fortunaly I work from the city. I always have done and see what makes her happy and accepted
For the past 10 years my wife have pushed me to make friends with him and i always had something telling me to be carefull, untill i told her of his escapades with manors she stoped to force the friendship, she started to "hate" about this time, and now she can no even stand in the same room, when he anounced his first divorce, my relations with my wife where much better about a year latter he anounced a marrige with a co-worker and my relations went to hell, untill prior my affair, everything i do was wrong, that i had to bring more to our home and more to our relation still there always have been a wall in between us, and since we meet first there is no way to break that wall, she has told me that her affair happened because we did not spend time together that we did not comunicated, that she wanted to fill wanted and i told her that it is the same that she and i have lost the lust of each other.
Well I think that the truth is:
No comunication, no desire to be with each other, sex (what is that), and from my point of view there has not been trust (if we had trusted each other she will have told me the advances of this person then) from the begining, and there will be no trust ever in both parts we might accepted our affairs but the trust was lost.
I always have been conciencious of her wanted to improve her life and her selfsteem, accepted all her flaws and qualities, belived or not at the begining i noticed the way she handled other people (males mostly)and trusted her blindly, that is the major hurt, (at the moment), one of the set backs is that she and he have been nominated by her church as the most honest and respectfull people in the town award (needless to say she has decline the award on my sugestion)
at her church (we Have different ideas about religion), she always have told that the truth is the most important thing in ones life, that the truth always will come out (and see the reaction when someone lied to her makes me wonder if she has told me the truth about her affair) well let see what happen in the future
thanks Gabby and please forgive my disrespecfulness which is not intended and i am not hideing a thing this time.
P.S.
One more thing yes i had oportunities to cheat but never felt in the trap i always thought that my family was more important than that, untill last year when i needed to feel wanted and human, again plus as i said before i did not wanted to be like my father(he had several affairs).
sacamuelas
Hi sacamuelas:
Thank you for explaining that English is your second language. In this new light your post and reply are very good. Goodness knows I could not do as well with my high school Spanish or college German.
There is nothing left for me to say. It's clear from your reply that I failed to cause communication to take place in my reply. Your situation is compounded by the English translation problem. My replies are extremely challenging, even for native English speaking people. I speak to a part of the mind that is different than the part of the mind that created the problem. Most English speaking readers read my replies and argue with what I write. Much of what I write doesn't sink in for them for several years. I accept only English as a first language for all of our communication-skills tutorials.
I think things are so bad for you that you will not even take my advice—which is for you to get extensive therapy/counseling, about fifty 50-minute sessions, alone, not with your wife attending. You have what's referred to as a "victim act." You have been programmed to set it up for, in this case, your wife, to use you, to "walk over you," to manipulate you. There is absolutely no way out for you except through therapy/self-realization. Even if you divorced her today, you'd still be programmed to search out/attract another equally abusive wife.
The problem is that you can't see your own abuse. You honestly and sincerely can't see how you manipulate her to treat you as she does, consequently you blame her. You can't see your own lies. You can't see that she mirrors your integrity. You can't see that she had no choice but to cheat on you, that you do not create a safe space for her to say what's on her mind. Your communication model (how you communicate, how you relate) causes disrespect. By the way, this is not a cultural or religion phenomenon. It's typical in all cultures.
The reason you give for cheating is a lie. Also, living your life making your father wrong for being a liar and a cheater only causes you to be the same. That is to say, you become what you resist. He lied and so you now lie. He cheated and so too have you.
In selecting a therapist, ask around. Ask, "Who is the best therapist in town?" —else, you will waste your time and money, because part of your addiction is to select a therapist whom you can con, and who in turn will con you like your wife has. You're looking for a therapist whom others say, "I have definitely improved. I have changed my behaviors. I feel very much better about myself. "I am creating and solving problems at a much faster rate of speed." And most importantly, "My primary relationship is working very well." Look for a therapist who operates (communicates) from responsibility. A therapist's personal definition of responsibility determines your success. If your therapist has incidents in life in which they still blame others then they will not be able to support you in communicating from cause about certain incidents in life for which you still blame your parents. For example: You're looking for a therapist who, when they describe their divorce, say, "I left my wife" as opposed to "She divorced me." Cause vs victim, Responsibility vs blame.
Please do not post again until you have completed 50 hours of therapy. In this way I'll know I am relating with someone who values me and my advice. If you have gotten value through our communications please make a donation.
With aloha, Gabby
Thank you for explaining that English is your second language. In this new light your post and reply are very good. Goodness knows I could not do as well with my high school Spanish or college German.
There is nothing left for me to say. It's clear from your reply that I failed to cause communication to take place in my reply. Your situation is compounded by the English translation problem. My replies are extremely challenging, even for native English speaking people. I speak to a part of the mind that is different than the part of the mind that created the problem. Most English speaking readers read my replies and argue with what I write. Much of what I write doesn't sink in for them for several years. I accept only English as a first language for all of our communication-skills tutorials.
I think things are so bad for you that you will not even take my advice—which is for you to get extensive therapy/counseling, about fifty 50-minute sessions, alone, not with your wife attending. You have what's referred to as a "victim act." You have been programmed to set it up for, in this case, your wife, to use you, to "walk over you," to manipulate you. There is absolutely no way out for you except through therapy/self-realization. Even if you divorced her today, you'd still be programmed to search out/attract another equally abusive wife.
The problem is that you can't see your own abuse. You honestly and sincerely can't see how you manipulate her to treat you as she does, consequently you blame her. You can't see your own lies. You can't see that she mirrors your integrity. You can't see that she had no choice but to cheat on you, that you do not create a safe space for her to say what's on her mind. Your communication model (how you communicate, how you relate) causes disrespect. By the way, this is not a cultural or religion phenomenon. It's typical in all cultures.
The reason you give for cheating is a lie. Also, living your life making your father wrong for being a liar and a cheater only causes you to be the same. That is to say, you become what you resist. He lied and so you now lie. He cheated and so too have you.
In selecting a therapist, ask around. Ask, "Who is the best therapist in town?" —else, you will waste your time and money, because part of your addiction is to select a therapist whom you can con, and who in turn will con you like your wife has. You're looking for a therapist whom others say, "I have definitely improved. I have changed my behaviors. I feel very much better about myself. "I am creating and solving problems at a much faster rate of speed." And most importantly, "My primary relationship is working very well." Look for a therapist who operates (communicates) from responsibility. A therapist's personal definition of responsibility determines your success. If your therapist has incidents in life in which they still blame others then they will not be able to support you in communicating from cause about certain incidents in life for which you still blame your parents. For example: You're looking for a therapist who, when they describe their divorce, say, "I left my wife" as opposed to "She divorced me." Cause vs victim, Responsibility vs blame.
Please do not post again until you have completed 50 hours of therapy. In this way I'll know I am relating with someone who values me and my advice. If you have gotten value through our communications please make a donation.
With aloha, Gabby